[Ninja]

I agree with Frank here.  We need to stop this discussion, not in the interest of killing fruitful debate, but because this debate is not fruitful.  

For one final, emphatic time:
<b>This is not about minor involvement. It's about legal restrictions on airsoft.</b>

What <i>would</i> be good is if we really start practical discussion as to what we can do about it.

[yellowmonkey]

Ok, you're all getting back on topic I see. Just Kidding

Ninja's right though, what could we do to keep legislation from taking airsoft away at this point in time? My only good idea so far was getting an AA kind of airsoft Constitution out. I know we already have rules and a newbie FAQ, but surely it wouldn't hurt if we had a page of text that defended airsoft and showed why it was so good. Arizona hasn't really decided to crack down on airsoft yet, it was CA at the beginning of this post, but we should already have an argument prepared for questions that people will be asking. People are going to be attacking the safty issues in airsoft. Without forcing people to go out to an AA game and watching how safely we play, how can we convince them that airsoft is a character building, teamwork developing, thinking, and physically demanding game? People don't like the idea of "killing" being associated with a large group of poeple. I think we need to  formally explain how airsoft is a good thing, the FAQ AA has just doesn't quite cover it in my opinion.

[Legs]

I've said my bit, so I will add only this:
Nobody will care in any way, if and when legislators (or other groups) here decide to start looking at airsoft, that we have a "Why airsoft is good" statement.  The NRA has had a "Guns are good" motto since it's inception, and that has stopped nothing, nor slowed it.  
My entire intent (which has been slaughtered here) was to make you all aware that such things are coming, and that the first "bigger" law had been passed in CA.  If we are dumb enough to play around the grey areas until it's too late, we're toast.  Sending the minors out to hunt down legal proof that the sport is illegal for them, in writing, won't help any either.  That's my point...the law ISN'T hard and fast yet.  But if any person here seriously believes that the courst won't declare it off limits for minors when that time comes, you're a fool.

[yellowmonkey]

Well, I think that if people are trying to find out more about airsoft, which I did (quite a bit) before getting my first springer, we should be there to defend the sport from many of those questions that... oh, well lets just say for now, a concerned parent might have (this is just an example for now). This parent might have questions as to the safety issues airsoft poses, questions as to the legitimacy and popularity of airsoft, or just questions as to what people get out of airsoft. I think it would help people see airsofters as legitiment. If you do a search on "airsoft in arizona", as anyone who is looking to find out moure about airsoft in their state might do, we should really have something that attracts people to it when they see AA's site. It should say: " Here's what you get out of airsoft sporting events, and without it you would have to go back to paintball or whatever." A lot of people like airsoft as an alternative to paintball you know. As far as legislation as airsoft goes, they haven't come after us yet, all I'm saying is that making a good impression in the start of it all will give us a better chance when the time for legislative action comes. We can get the ball rolling on how we present ourselves. Sadly I don't think that anybody important will take enough intrest in airsoft at this time to help us out with redefining the current laws, we will probably have to wait for attention to come from something bad, but like I said, we can make a good impression.

Please don't mind the typos.

[KenCasper]

It sounds legs likemaybe you have already researched the Arisoft laws?? I would be unfort my time is in very short supply as of late, the rumor mills at work are predicting many more Unit activations in the near future, and they are having us work like crazy to get ready.

I realize the leagal aspect you were showing, I don't think we should put our heads between our legs though and kiss airsoft good-bye though. Do I think we will win a leagal battle over airsoft? No I don't not if we have to fund it, I'm not rich yet, but hey maybe I will be after the PB drawing this sunday! Even if we had all the money in the world to fight a leagal case, case law created by judges can ruin any hopes of minors or even adults playing seemingly overnight, look at what they have done to the "Do Not Call List" this week. If it wasn't a court casae the prospect of us few airsofters (face it we are a very small minority) don't stand much of a chance in lobbying against "anti-airsoft" or for "pro-airsoft" legislation.

But since there seems to be such an argument about the legality of minor and airsoft someone should take the time to "prove" the right or wrong of their bliefs. BTW I call them beliefs since no one appears to know for certin the law (number or section) that states minors can't play/own/ or some say purchase. Since I curently don't have the time to wade thru the ARS's, Federal Regs/ Laws, and local laws, I must defer that to someone that has the time.

[Legs]

This is all that is known so far.  It is illegal for minors to purchase airosft guns and for vendors to knowingly sell to them.
That's it.  That's the only widely stated position.  There are no airsoft laws for me to have studied, so no, I have not done so.  I have, however, studied law for many years, and I know how quickly the dots are connected.  The CA legislation was not written to allow us to remove orange paint from our guns.  it's a stepping stone, and nothing more.  There is always a methodical reason for smaller laws to be written, and the end intent is rarely clear to the general public...which is why little resistance is voiced.  Baby steps.
Do what you guys will.  I'm no lawyer.  I call it like I see it and I have not been wrong yet where the laws about various things are concerned...mostly firearms laws.  I am taking a break from airsoft for a time and I hope it's still here when I can get back to it.  Take care of it for me and do everything you can to preserve it.  To me, that includes pre-emptive moves, such as disallowing minors now rather than waiting to have it fully mandated.  If it is a law that WILL be imposed, live my it now.  You talk about making a good first impression...that's a big one in my eye.  Being obedient to an impending law is a great way to show how much you value your sport.

[Me-Ushi_Kami]

I spent much of my time at work tonight looking all over the net for information on airsoft, laws on airsoft, and anything i could that would give us more info on this topic. For the most part there isnt much out there *YET*. I know 3 cities already BANNED airsoft. Many shops wont deliver to New York, New Jersey and one other place i cant think of off the top of my head. I say we take pre-emptive moves and do what we can to keep airsoft around (like legs said).

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"Citing the prevalence of crimes committed in New York using replicas -- 1,400 in 1987, the last available statistic" www.cnn.com (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/08/ctv.toy.guns/) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Most laws that affect us in AZ about airsoft most of you know or have at least heard most of it just in this topic/forum alone. Well hopefully we can keep this sport alive cuase I have a few friends still waiting to turn 18 to join up. Lets be smart about this. Thanks for your time and if i can find more useful infomation I will post it.

[yellowmonkey]

Well, in spite of going in circles, what can we do preemptively besides making a good impression? The only attention I can forsee coming to airsoft is bad attention?     *I know... the official AA Pancake breakfast!

*Note: items by "*" marks signify jesting.

[Paco]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by yellowmonkey</i>
<br />...what can we do preemptively besides making a good impression? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Perhaps encouraging retailers (especially local ones like Game On and the Command Post) to not sell to minors...

[Screwloose]

Well I don't think we have to worry about Command post. They hardly have any AEG's and the ones they have are a couple hundred dollers over priced.

I don't think Ron sells to minors, but don't quote me on that.

[Pancho]

I spoke with Haji at the Tempe Command Post on Thursday. He was kind of vague about it. When I asked him, and he stated that he would if a parent was present when it was being purchased. At least that is what I understood him to say. Again, he was kind of vague.

[Legs]

California recently saw legislation that specifically targeted airsoft guns.  I've been saying for years that it was only a matter of time and it started where I figured it would.  California has the highest number of airsofters of any single state, so it makes sense to start things there.  The bill is clever.  It basically, on the surface, "promotes" airsoft guns out of the realm of toys and into the realm of projectile guns that can fire metallic objects by design.  Not yet firearms, but not toys.  It negates the Federal requirement for airsoft guns to have the orange or red muzzles because that statute only applies to replica TOYS.  This pleases a lot of players, who do not see past this surface benefit, but it should make all of us think hard about my favorite of all issues:  Minors in airsoft.  The guns were already illegal for minors to purchase.  We all know this.  However, too few of us consider that "illegal to purchase" is a half step away from "illegal to possess."  Don't cite firearms law to me...I know them.  I know that a minor can carry certain guns in Arizona under adult supervision.  WE DON'T WANT AIRSOFT TO BE ELEVATED INTO THE LEGAL REALM OF FIREARMS, so that argument is moot at the moment.  The true intent of this legislation has nothing to do with appeasing the poor airsofting community which has obediently endured that ugly orange paint for so long.  It's direct point is to make airsoft guns MORE GOVERNABLE.  This means more laws, more lawsuits, and above all, more attention to those who are participating in this adult sport.  The bill's founder openly stated that his goal was to create a law that would govern "where airsoft guns might go in the future", or words to that effect.  They are already planning ahead, guys.  I'm less concerned about offending the 15 year-olds out there than I am about the sport being legislated into obscurity before its time.  I'll say it again:  If you leave it to the courts to decide whether or not minors can legally play, they will vote with a resounding NO, and they will not stop there.  They'll put it in writing, and while they're in there, they'll tidy up a few other things as well...all of which will be negative.  Guns and their related activities are not publicly popular, and even less so when they involve minors.  Bottom line, this legislation is as close as "they" have yet come to stating plainly that kids are not to be involved with these guns.  We can either embrace this and lower our profile, or we can continue to ignore it watch this progressively get worse.