My goal for joining Airsoft Arizona

[sonjamichelle]

Just introduced myself in the newbie thread (page 75 or so).

As I mentioned briefly in my intro post, I'm not new to MilSim or Tactical operations, though I am a relative newcomer to airsoft. Thanks to my son I'm quite into it now and it provides a great way to exercise, de-stress and just plain have fun.

I live in Central Texas (Austin Area) and we're extremely organized out here. We even have rules on grammar and spelling for posts on the forums. The majority of our players are in their 20's, though we range in age from preteen to folks in their 50's. I have 3 organized fields within 70 miles of my home, the closest is 6 miles away. We skirmish every weekend alternating between the 2 biggest fields and we average a major operation about once a month. We even have 2 Operation Lionclaws events a year. (Bulldog and Night Scorpion) The organization, availability of skirmishes and number of large operations made it an easy choice for me to embrace airsoft as a hobby for my son. It gets him out of the house, into fresh air and he's not parked in front of a TV or game console 10 hours a day. The biggest thing that swung my decision was the professionalism and standards that Texas Airsofters expect of themsleves.  My son showed up to his first skirmish with a pair of $10 sport store electric pistols. Once the others started showing up we realized he was thoroughly outgunned and was going to get slaughtered. Anyhow we introduced ourselves and the group pulled him right on in to the fold. After the daily safety briefing, equipment check and rules acknowledgment away they went. Six hours later it was time for us to go, he had a blast, got to use some of the other folk's weapons, was made to feel welcomed, participated actively and was invited back next week.

I was thoroughly impressed by my first encounter. Over the next few weeks we upgraded his arsenal and uniform. As the weather started cooling off the player count increased and we started meeting some of the key folks in the Texas airsoft community. Again I was really impressed and was sure that I made the right decision allowing my son to get involved. Of course I stressed to my son and made sure that he adhered to and upheld the same standards expected and exhibited by the other players. He became a valued and welcomed player and on numerous occasions I was complimented on my involvement as a parent and told that he was an exceptional player when it came to honor, behaviour, teamwork and his overall character. As my knee healed after an accident I was able to join in and get involved in a few skirmishes. I was able to see all this myself and again was impressed with the quality of the folks even on the battlefield.

During the time, yes, there were other younger players, even some older ones who just did not meet the expectations. One group had to be repeatedly reminded of the safety rules throughout the day. (blowing my own horn here; my son has never had to be reminded!) Needless to say those type of folks tend not to be welcomed back.

Ok, enough back story.  My goal is to find a group that my son can get involved with in the Phoenix area. Especially one that has the same high standards as we do here in Austin. But I have to say, my reading in the forum so far, I've seen a lot of typical internet forum BS; infighting, name calling and division, etc. So right off the bat my first initial impressions are pretty low. I hesitate to point my boy in the direction of AirsoftArizona. One of the things that helped me make the decision to allow him to airsoft in the first place was the impression and sense of professionalism I got from the Texas community forum. Then I was pleased to find it was upheld in person and on the field! I hope I'm expressing my concerns clearly here.

I do understand age limits and liability. We set age limits on different events, require more extensive eye/face protection for minors, etc. We do allow exceptions to the age limit based on parent involvement, player's history and references from other players. Unfortunately I'm not in Arizona to physically get involved with my son on the airsoft field. The opportunities may come only a few times a year for bigger events. I don't want him to lose interest in the sport and I certainly want him to get involved in a professional and serious minded group of folks.

I guess in a way I'm saying convince me. As I said so far my initial impression of the Phoenix airsoft community is pretty low based on what I've seen on the forums. I don't want him to resort to heading out to the local park with some kids to get his airsoft "fix" and get in trouble with local authorities and I don't want to have to tell him he can't airsoft at all until he comes to Texas or only during the few times I'll be in Phoenix.

[Doc Hollywood]

Sonjamichelle:

Many, if not most of us here on the AA forum are vets of Night Scorp, Bulldog, Irene and all the other Lionclaws Ops.

Yeah, we bark a lot and talk smack among ourselves but understand much of that is between and among people that not only know each other, but also its stuff that would be said in person.

You don't see the "super secret squirrel" conversations because, well its limited to a smaller group of higher tier players.  This is just a place where free speech is not infringed on.

Anyway, welcome to the AZ and your son will meet the right people and be in good company once he heads out to some local games....

[sonjamichelle]

I'm 1st Cav myself. I also have 15 years Law Enforcement, EMS and Fire experience so calling it as ya see it, being blunt and having a colourfull language certainly doesn't bug me any.

The big thing is finding a place for my son to airsoft there in Arizona. I'll only be able to get to Arizona a couple times a years. He's used to 6 hours of skirmishing every two weeks at a minimum. He wants to stay active in airsoft and I want to encourage him. I just want to make sure he's in an environment that's safe and welcoming. So far the general feeling on the forum is if you're under 18 you're not wanted. And the ones on the forum under 18 sure aren't making a good impression. Not sure if it's because that's their inherent behaviour or if it's from the community as a whole not wanting to bother with them.

Like I said, it's a different airsoft  world here.

[Exarach]

I don't know if it helps or not, but the majority of the under 18's here that get the bad rep, are the ones who never get out and play, but costantly sit and whine, or complain. There is a great core of airsofters here, and the good ones, are often overshadowed by a few who continuously display their niaveity, and spread BS all over the front page of the forum. I have been playing now for over five years, and have met some of the best people I have ever know through airsoft. Don't be discouraged by the minority, but look a little deeper, and you will find a tight, solid bunch of of guys who play fair, and are always ready to give someone new a chance. Just tell your son to stick to "official" non- park games, and he should be fine. As long as he keeps a good rep, he should meet many great people on the field. As for the 18 age limit, I am not exactly sure, (im not a lawman myself), but believe that this stems from a law in either the US or Arizona, that makes waivers and such, count for very little in court, or a similar senario. Like I said, i am not 100% sure, and if you just search the forum quickly, there will be a thread that will pop up. (anyone who does know the exact reason, feel free to correct me.) If he is looking for a good time that accomadates under 18 players, try the APD games when they re-open, or Destructive paintball's airsoft games, if he is near Tucson. Cheerio chap!

[I Slap Fat Kids]

but believe that this stems from a law in either the US or Arizona, that makes waivers and such, count for very little in court, or a similar senario.

I think there was a law suit in Cali that made them hold a bit more importance.  Still, they're worth almost nothing here in AZ.

[-MAD- SARGE]

The biggest thing that swung my decision was the professionalism and standards that Texas Airsofters expect of themsleves.

From what I have heard I would say that Airsoft Arizona has the same attitudes that you saw in Texas. It pains me to see someone's first impressions tainted by the fact that many posts on the forums are made by ill-informed or ill-mannered kids and a few adults. Since being formed many good people have worked hard to maintain a good standing reputation throughout the community.  If I summed up AA it would be honor, good attitude and friendship. Sure we BS with each other but we do not tolerate misinformation and people lacking of good character and will not hesitate to tell them so.  All I can say is with more time I hope you will see who are the bad apples and those who are trying to continue to keep airsoft legitimate through out the community.

In respect to the forums, in the past, the forums here used to be really tight on providing good information and being a great resource for knowledge. It still is a great resource but you now have to wade through all the crap to find it, this is something that irritates me still. The forums get especially worse when school is out for the summer.  

From your intro it sounds like your son may be around the age of 12.  If so that is really young for our rule set and for your situation it makes it even harder, since you can not attend with your son. If he is older he may be able to find a sponsor who takes responsibility for them while at an event.  A sponsor is usually their parent, relative or a close friend as it is a lot of added responsibility for someone to sponsor someone but there are a few exceptions to the majority.  How is Texas set up on this issue?

[KOBO]

There is a big difference between the forum and the field. I would suggest going out to the games and see if it meets your expectations or not. There are different groups here that organize games so feel free to try them out. Some rules may vary between the groups so will have to look into them to see if your son will be able to play or not. The game organizers all seem to be good, just contact them and they will help you with the rules.

[sonjamichelle]

From your intro it sounds like your son may be around the age of 12.  If so that is really young for our rule set and for your situation it makes it even harder, since you can not attend with your son. If he is older he may be able to find a sponsor who takes responsibility for them while at an event.  A sponsor is usually their parent, relative or a close friend as it is a lot of added responsibility for someone to sponsor someone but there are a few exceptions to the majority.  How is Texas set up on this issue?

Yes he is 12. Here in the Austin area the age limit is mostly set by the field regulations. It's not uncommon to get someone as young as 10. Though that young we usually see a parent involved. We have a regular group that ranges from 12 to 15. They've been to enough skirmishes and have participated at a level that have proven their maturity to be welcomed back on a regular basis. Sure we got some "childish" behaviour like them calling the different parts of the filed "maps", the "It would be soooo cool if like ..." or even a few, "Dude that like sucked and was totally boring". For the most part we tend to laugh when it's silly or try to get them to communicate more at an adult level to find out why it "sucked" or was "boring" Sometimes we get some good ideas as a result and we get to mix things up a bit. We generally don't have to remind any of our core group of youngsters on safety and honor issues. We do get a few newbies that may need to be reminded now and then on their first couple of times out. For the most part newbie behaviour is policed by their peers.  We've had a few "asshats" show up, but they quickly found that they would not be welcomed.

When it comes to blatant safety issues we take an active approach and issue an ass chewing on the spot. If that doesn't get through and we continue to have a problem we tell them to leave. If they persist they're banned from the field and the community. Though we have not had to officially ban anyone beyond outright theft.

We do encourage parent, older sibling involvement. They don't have to be active in the filed with us, they just need to show an active interest in their child's hobby, behaviour and not treat us as a "daycare". The first few times, don't just drive by, dropped the kid off and run. Get to know us and vice versa. We don't always get that, but like I said it's usually up to the individual and his/her actions and attitude that determines whether they'll be welcomed.

Full scale operations are a different issue. Generally the age ruling is 16+ unless you have a veteran vouch for you. And believe me to get a vet to put their rep on the line, they usually have to have known you and skirmished with you for quite some time! It's rare to get anyone under 16 unless a parent or guardian is playing alongside. Most of our youngsters just come out to the weekly "shoot em ups" and that satisfies their airsoft fix.

Right now I'm looking for somewhere/someone I can point my son so he can get back into his weekly/bi-weekly skirmishes. Of course my ex will be involved at least to the degree of hanging around to see who' in charge, make sure it's safe and there's no BS and illegal activities. Most likely it'll be a "prove to me that I can trust my son with you bunch" observation and "3rd degree" (for lack of a better word". Like I mentioned before, he's a mature airsofter, doesn't not have to be constantly reminded of the rules. In fact he's be known to remind others. He generally tends to emulate those that are around him. If he's with a mature, serious group then you can expect the same behaviour.

[Pheonix 797]

Not to sound cheesy in a sense but I for one commend you for you action in benefit of your son. I think many of the parents who let their children get involved in airsoft could benefit from your example.

I won't try and speak for everyone in saying this, for the most part we're a "prove it" kind of bunch. If he's respectful, mindful and displays a decent level of character with the consent forms I for one wouldn't have any issues playing with either of you.

Unfortunately it's kind of hard to find even weekly games to attend.

[eggman998]

unfortunately I am having a very similar problem.  I cannot seem to find any local weekly/bi-weekly/monthly fields in my area that cater to the under 18 crowd.  I am 14 and so far my attempts at finding anything within driving distance of North west Glendale have failed miserably.  The only option open to me so far looks like Arizona Paintball Depot (5.5 miles from my home) South on 43rd avenue behind waterworld, and they aren't even open.  Sonja, I wish you the best of luck at finding a field.  Hopefully luck will smile on both of us in this matter.

[Ganef]

What you guys need to do is find other underage airsofters in your area and form your own group and hold your own games out in areas where it is legal to play.

At airsoft arizona games we restrict minors from playing because AA acts as almost an entity that can be sued in the event of an injury. Because there is so much running through rough terrain and shooting at each other an injury is almost bound to happen and a lawsuit is inevitable.

Our restriction of minors from games does not mean that minors can't play airsoft, they just can't play with us at official AA games. Go out and do some homework to find areas outside of the city that are 100% legal to play and form your own group (outside of AA, but it could include by pm people here) of people your age and hold a game. You guys seem to think you need a "field" or someone to hold your hand in these things, go out and do it and stop whining.

[sonjamichelle]

The mentality I'm seeing exhibited by airsoft arizona is disappointing. The supposed "older", "mature members" act holier than though and hind behind an excuse of liability. A minor can can hurt walking through your front door, so I could sue. Better make sure no minors show up to your front door. A minor could get hurt running through the local park involved in any type of activity. If I remember correctly the law in Arizona is still written such that someone can break into your house, knock your 47" TV off the wall, break their foot then turn around and sue you for improper/unsafe mounting. I remember a proposition over a decade ago that tried to prevent such frivolous law suits. Hate to break it to you but life comes with risks. Hell I cut my finger yesterday drilling out a handguard on my MP5 when the bit slipped. Guess I should go sue the drill manufacturer.

Established fields are preferred venue for airsoft, painltball, milsim because they are a controlled environment. Usually out of the public view, has controlled access, play can be shut down should an unaware non-combatant enter the field of play. However that controlled access point should negate such a happening.

Our ruleset that governs where we skirmish in TX:

"Renegade" play is when someone starts playing airsoft where they should not be (in the street, city parks, in public areas, in river beds). LSA supports and encourages only safe and legal airsoft play. That means that if you play airsoft, you must do so on private property with the property owner's permission and having notified local law enforcement or on secured dedicated property, such as TXPB or TACPB for example. LSA exists to provide safe fields for you to play at with other safe players per TASO rules. Do not ruin the sport for yourself and others by playing in unsafe, unsecured areas.

This is a STATEWIDE rule imposed by fellow players to ensure that our sport/hobby continues to be seen in a positive light, prevents mistaken dispatch by law enforcement that could end in a deadly exchange.

I see all these "minors" (I use quotes because the ages can't be verified and immaturity is not limited to those under 18) whining about wanting to play so they get a game going in the local park. Then the "mature" member chastise them for playing in public and causing harm to the sport. So then they change their post, to reflect that they'll go out into the desert and play. Again to be chastised because "since it's just desert doesn't make it legal to play out there".

All I see from these forums is contradiction, flamewars, immaturity, disrespect, pissing contests, and plain pure stupidity. Just look at a few signature blocks! I've even been PM'ed to stay away from certain weekly meetings because of reported alcohol and drug use during those events.

I'm holding my son to the same standards and rules that we began airsofting to.  If that means starting his own group, finding a secure location with the land owner's consent and involvement so be it. If he has to travel to Texas to participate in the numerous    organized operations we host, so be it. I'm to the point that I'm just going to suggest that he set up a range on his back acre for target shooting and practice and just keep him informed of the Ops here in Texas and the many that our organization gets invited to around the country. And tell him to avoid Arizona airsofters like a plague.

I have to say, had my son asked me to start airsofting and I based the sport/hobby on this website I would have said no in a heartbeat. The reason my son is involved in airsoft is because of the professionalism, rules, code of conduct, honor and integrity of the community I found in here in Texas.

[Ganef]

Arizona isn't Texas, and it isn't California either. The core of us here have to fight off the hordes of underage internet jockeys who fill our forum with nonsense every time school is out. The forum is not the best reflection of the actual state of airsoft in AZ nor is AA a team. I don't know how things are run in Texas, but you can't assume it would be the same.

The reality of airsoft is tough. We have very limited places to play, between the national forrest land, the indian reservations, the military reservations, and large swaths of metropolitan areas and private lands. When we have a place to play then we have to fight off the paintballers, the ATVers, the gun shooters and the campers. Most legal places to play are far out of town where minors don't have rides to get to anyway. There are no "airsoft fields", and not many of us want to play on paintball fields because of the cost and the paint on everything. The marauders field is way the hell out of town, and why should we drive that far and then pay to play.

Minors who live in the city have few options in terms of legal venues, most of which require an hour or more of driving. It is allowed to bring your child to a game as long as you stay and watch or play if you want to. But most parents bring a truck load of kids out to the desert and expect us to babysit.

Legal issue or not, we choose to not play with minors. And that is the bottom line.
 
We advise them to be smart, follow the rules (of which "renegade" play is obviously illegal) so that their own sport will stay alive in the state, and if they want to organize themselves outside of this forum they are just fine in doing so, or pay the marauders. When they are adults they are more than welcome to join us, if they don't want to that is fine, just don't ruin the sport for all of us with bad press.

If your son can't find like minded kids at his school to play with then it isn't our fault if he can't get his airsoft fix. Thank you for coming to us to find out about airsoft organization in AZ, sorry it isn't as minor-friendly as you had hoped, but keep looking.

[Doc Hollywood]

Keeping in mind I have personally vouched for and sponsered several minors at national level Best of USA events ....

 

If I remember correctly the law in Arizona is still written such that someone can break into your house, knock your 47" TV off the wall, break their foot then turn around and sue you for improper/unsafe mounting. I remember a proposition over a decade ago that tried to prevent such frivolous law suits. Hate to break it to you but life comes with risks.

No one is "hiding" behind any sense of liability.  Most of us have made an educated decision that we don't want to play with those under 18 - liability being only one of many factors.  No such law exists in Arizona as no duty is owed to a trespassor.

We dont force anything on anyone here - but we wont have minors forced on us.  Some elect to play with minors.  They will make themselves known.  

I'm holding my son to the same standards and rules that we began airsofting to.  If that means starting his own group, finding a secure location with the land owner's consent and involvement so be it. If he has to travel to Texas to participate in the numerous  organized operations we host, so be it. I'm to the point that I'm just going to suggest that he set up a range on his back acre for target shooting and practice and just keep him informed of the Ops here in Texas and the many that our organization gets invited to around the country. And tell him to avoid Arizona airsofters like a plague.

As has been pointed out to you - this aint Texas.  Nor is it California.  AA is not the same as the Texas "forums" because here its just a place to talk, bitch and otherwise communicate.  There is no regularly scheduled organized airsoft on any statewide level here.  Local stuff comes and goes.  AA is nto a snapshot of "Arizona airsofters" its just a forum.  Most of the top tier players dont even really post here - not about airsoft anyway.   Teams - although few and far between - have their own invite only forums not generally open to the public.

I have to say, had my son asked me to start airsofting and I based the sport/hobby on this website I would have said no in a heartbeat. The reason my son is involved in airsoft is because of the professionalism, rules, code of conduct, honor and integrity of the community I found in here in Texas.

Its not Texas.  And this webiste is clearly not friendly towards minors.  However they are not completely banned from being in our house unless they are complete asshats.  Again, each player is entitled to decide what kind of play, and what kind of player, they want to be around.

AA is not a statewide game organizer - or even a local game organizer.  Its an electronic cork board where pretty much anyone can stick their two cents on.

Besides, the vast majority of the people here in AA don't play airsoft a lot.

Your failure was to treat this forum like the ones you have in Texas.  Take a step back and recognize what this forum is and re-engage.  But its not fair to get pissed when adults tell you they don't want to play with a minor.  Its a choice.

You have yet to become acquanted with the "professionalism, rules, code of conduct, honor and integrity of the community " of airsoft here in Arizona because doing so requries personal presence among us.  You wont get that over the net.

Best of luck.

[Vince]

tl;dr

I appreciate what you're trying to do. That being said, you are not the first person to make a thread like this.

I can understand how you think that Texas airsoft is more professional. They just have a lot more moderation and rules. However, we don't have any Hidden Swords here. By and large, at the good games, it's quality people. It's been quality people for as long as I can remember. How do we keep the quality of the attendance so high? Drum out anybody who isn't fit to serve in my beloved corps. This brotherhood of pot metal and plastic isn't a democracy, and it's not a public service. It's a private organization, the membership of which is not exactly mirrored on this forum. An AirsoftArizona forum member does not an AirsoftArizona member make. Your son, he might be just fine and great and whatnot. However, he will be tarred with the same brush, unfortunately. Allowing minors has never lead to anything good. Not even once.

You know how you burned yourself on a stove as a kid, because you didn't know it was hot?

You don't do it anymore, do you?

We got burned a few times.

We don't do it anymore.