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Author Topic: Lionclaws 09  (Read 7055 times)

Offline psycost

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2009, 10:33:20 PM »
thanx. Didn't know they had a forum.
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Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2009, 11:41:27 AM »
Quote
LC VIII registration will open on Mar. 30, 2009.

Focus of this evolution is Spec. Ops. EVERYONE will get the Spec. Ops experience.

No more guarding a shack for two hours...no more patrolling without contact....no more sitting on a pipeline waiting for the enemy who never showed....you are now simulating Spec. Ops......you'll be work fast and furious.....get in, get it done, get out; reassigned a theater, move out to another mission..........

We welcome our new game designer Mr. Scott Ingalls who will share his Hollywood movie-making talent with us over the weekend of May 22, 23, 24, 2009 at an AO that remains CLASSIFIED (but it's in SoCal).

The mission may send you to the high desert, it may dispatch you to a remote desert town to the East, we won't know the mission until the US Army is ready to give us that intel.

To simulate Spec. Ops operators, we suggested that you gear up and be ready to rock-n-roll where ever the mission may take you.

Good luck!

Lion Claws Out
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Offline Pheonix 797

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2009, 06:07:22 PM »
Hollywood + Airsoft...?
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Offline satallite

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2009, 06:18:38 PM »
why not? Half of them use airsoft guns for their extras.
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Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2009, 08:35:24 PM »
I'm just the messenger .... don't hate....
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Offline Korean_Moon

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2009, 12:59:21 AM »
Thanks for the update Doc, seems that there is some hope for the people that want to go to LC this year.

The "theme" that they posted seemed like it was something new? any LC veterans have any input on this?
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Offline Ganef

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2009, 01:50:23 AM »
It is nice that they are directly addressing common problems of past LC ops, but they are missing the point of having 400 players in one place by breaking it up as they are supposing. It is also nice that they are trying to fix things, but reinventing the wheel every time shows many things about the BofUSA structure (game organization issues, leadership problems, orchestration problems, knowing what works and doesn't in airsoft, critical analysis of gameplay... etc.).

I was kinda annoyed when the LC series began to break up the large amount of people into smaller games(LC5, LC6) spaced on a larger playing area, it defeats the coolness of going to play with so many other people. There was a neatness to the feeling that you were part of a much larger force and sometimes had them next to you in a massive push.

I think LC5 was supposed to be similar to this setup where you wait for orders and move out accordingly. It didn't really work like it was supposed to and there was still massive amounts of down time and getting lost time.

I think many of you on here who have gone to a few games around AZ but haven't been to a large out of state game need the experience, good or bad. Don't have high expectations, don't have any expectations, you may be surprised.


I do think that airsoft as a whole needs some in depth analysis of what works and what doesn't. There are many different ways to play the game, (tightly orchestrated team challenges, massive wars, halfway orchestrated themed battles, modern reenactmentish, CQB speedball, skills tests) and I am surprised that the right equation for a great game hasn't been figured out yet, or if one can be figured out.
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Offline TheStenGun

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2009, 09:44:00 AM »
Figuring out a perfect game structure through the dialectic method? You think like a scientist. I only have been to one LC, I have to agree that the simple experience of being part of a game with so many players is unique. It is also one of those those things that I am glad to have attended but not terribly eager to sacrifice the money and time to do again having gone.
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Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2009, 11:16:39 AM »
A big part of the problem with the LC Series is that there is no continuity in game admin and staff from event to event in most cases.

OPLC has had different designers, admin, and control staff pretty much every event since at least OPLC 4.  With each new structure comes the inevitable re-inventing of the wheel, ego, personality conflicts and the wildcard effect of whatthefuck is John Lu going to do this time.

Certain events do have the same designer, staff and admin from event to event, such as Irene.  Because of that consistency the lessons learned are applied to the next event and generally the mechanics and flow of the game are far superior.  The same generally applies to Bulldog and Night Scoprion (although OPNS II was assfucked for other reasons).

However, one of the singlemost reasons why the LC series has massive failures is the point system that Joh Lu refuses to abandon for a more realistic simulation model.  Although he is starting to at least understand why points dont work in airsoft - mostly because more and more of the long term LC vets are not going to his games anymore.

By all means go to LC if you have not.  They are not 100% terrible.  After you have been to 13 of these events  you might have some perspective.
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Offline Ganef

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2009, 01:53:48 PM »
The basic premise of Irene was the same from 3 to 4 but with the addition of more civilians and camera folks operating on only one side the game was a disaster within the first hour, without even mentioning the bikers. After hearing the scoring after the morning of combat I was ready to abandon all safety and game courtesy and shoot at every civilian and camera person who came within range out of frustration since we had already lost the entire weekend in the course of the first evolution.

The point system is fine without deductions, but the games would be better without any point structure. Game organizers need however, to give players a sense of accomplishment.

Mr. B, I am a superscientist after all...
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Offline Fat_Santa54

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2009, 03:52:21 PM »
is LC held in the same place every year? I know he said that the location wont be announced untill later, but generally where is it in southern Cal.?
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Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2009, 04:04:11 PM »
I guess my underlying premise is, in the real military there are no points in war.  The measure of success is eliminating the other soldiers or eliminating their will to fight.  While its possible to recreate that feeling of defeat in an airsoft event, its not very sportsmanlike - for example the bikes: sportsmanlike? nope.  Real world utility? Yep.  Did it have an effect on the will to fight? Absolutely.  Real combat is not very nice and its not in any way "sportsmanlike."  Its about crushing and demoralizing and destroying.  Frankly these are qualities that should not be simulated outside of the professional management of the officer corps which is entrusted with the profession of arms.

Its just not possible to faithfully simulate the management and application of violence in a game environment without eliminating the concept of "sportsmanship." IMHAO anyway.  

So as a soldier, points are gay and unrealistic.  But if you are going to use points as a measure of success you must base the points on what would be a success in real combat.  Occupying buildings in close quarters with an opposing force is not a real military activity.  Especially when the win/loose decision pointwise is based on just a few buildings in the center of Zussman.  A lot of the other missions in OPI III and IV had a flavor of real and the points reflected that but that first scenario was just BS.

Add the human factor:  I have been to several LC events where I saw the point system being manipulated to either favor one side or to maintian a close spread between the two sides (depending on who the VIPs were).  Scenarios were re-written to effect the point outcome at OPNS II.  

At this point in my life I am certainly more strategic in my approach to airballing than tactical.  For one thing I'm tired of my real world skills getting sloppy due to airsofting.  For another BTDT plenty much for the kicking doors and firefigting so its flavor is a bit bland anymore.  Unfortunately in the LC series there is very little strategic authority granted to the CoC, and much of the tactical authority is tightly controlled by scenarios, points, and other Luisms.

But then I am an old and jaded Paratrooper who is pissed that I cant jump out of aircraft and blow shitt up anymore, and my service is limited to auxiliary support, and its just a game anyway right?.  So yeah I'm off the soapbox now....
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Offline Vince

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2009, 04:55:58 PM »
Think we are missing the forest for the trees here. BoUSA OPs have just gotten worse and worse since their zenith, which, IMHO, was Irene 3.

Ganef touched on the biggest point that needs to be made here. The only draw to LC is volume, LC5 was when it seemed the LC series went down hill with the different AOs and what not, and keeping that going is just such a bad idea.

'Special Ops' sounds real, real fucking gay too.

But, I will probably still go if enough of my friends are.

Quote from: "Doc Hollywood"
Scenarios were re-written to effect the point outcome at OPNS II.

Luckily, Hotel had good leadership. Especially their NCOs. Holy shit. Those guys were aces.
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"I was having dinner with Andrew Ho, and he said I should have COL McKnight lead airsofters in mock combat. I said, "That is the gayest idea I have ever heard." - John Lu

Offline Doc Hollywood

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2009, 06:38:45 PM »
Quote from: "Vince"

Quote from: "Doc Hollywood"
Scenarios were re-written to effect the point outcome at OPNS II.

Luckily, Hotel had good leadership. Especially their NCOs. Holy s***. Those guys were aces.

Especially that one SL from Arizona...   8)
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Offline Airsofter1

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Re: Lionclaws 09
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2009, 10:02:35 PM »
Quote
for example the bikes
I hate you.

Every event planner that has come through and put the scenarios together has had their own "gimmick".  To me these gimmicks seem to just F' things up.  But then again my gimmick would be that my plan has none, and therefore would add to the decline of the OP:LC events...
When you get that many people in one place it just gets hard to coordinate things.  My applause to all those that have come through and sat in that seat for John Lu.  Its a tough job.
The guy that is next in line in game-planning LC is a good guy and I wish him the best.
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