[TheRev]

I echo your response Kyle, and I will also add my 2 cents. Obviously there is an appeal to this sport we call airsoft to the younger crowd. Whether it's the sense of adventure, or the adrenaline rush, or just the fact that you get to "dress up" and play army. But the fact remains that this sport is basically an unregulated sport. However, the tools we use in playing this sport are regulated. You must be eighteen to purchase, own, possess or transport and airsoft "toy". This is the law. There is a reason for this law. It is designed (whether there are loopholes in it or not) to require that a legal "adult" (who is supposed to be a responsible, self guided and regulated individual) be the only purchaser, possessor and user of these realistic toys. The law does not consider the use of the weapon by any other individual as it assumes that only the original purchaser will be the one using it. Parents who buy an airsoft gun for their 13 year old are, in effect, violating the intent of the law. This, in essence, makes criminals of unsuspecting parents, who give these toys to their children not thinking of the consequences if their fine little Billy runs off and scares the crap out of the next door neighbor. The law is the law. This is just one more article, in a long string of articles, that in one way or another, draw uneeded and unwanted attention to the fragility of our sport. But you know, the world is full of stupid people. 'Nuf said.

TheRev

[TimW]

Gee...all this reminds me of what real gunowners have faced for years...the ****ups will cause society to turn against us and create laws that restrict honest folks from using a legitimate self-defense tool.  All I can say to you, FROM EXPERIENCE, is DO NOT COMPROMISE. Don't agree to 'reasonable restrictions' because it will allow you to continue to play.  Because there will be more restrictions...then more.

I've been in the Second Amendment fight since about 1993, heavy since 1998.  I've seen what NRA's compromise has done for gun rights, overall.  Just recently, the model rocket crowd got screwed by ATF when they didn't fight licenseing...now little Johnny and his dad have to get licenses, permits, fingerprints and pictures in order to fly model rockets above a class E (the kind you buy at Hobby World).

They were warned that this would happen...they said "no, we're working hand-in-hand with the ATF and these reasonable restrictions will be ok..."  And now?  They are whining about how oppressive it's become.

I don't think this will happen to airsoft. I KNOW it will happen.  You need to form some sort of coalition of individuals working in a coordinated fashion (because groups always are a target for government) to fight this.  Inviting politicians may help, but those who will restrict this do so because they hate guns...ALL guns.  They are not misinformed, they are not ill-advised.  They know EXCACTLY what they are doing.  They will lie, cheat, obfuscate.  You will think that educating them will help.  No it won't.  You must anihilate them at the voting booth.  Calls, faxes, protests in the capital.

Do not ever forget that.

Compromise = death.

Tim Weaver
www.practicaltactical.net
www.assaultvest.com

[Raith]

Good post, Tim.

[Legs]

Tim...where have you been all my life?

[TimW]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Legs</i>
<br />Tim...where have you been all my life?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh...around.

Tim Weaver
www.practicaltactical.net
www.assaultvest.com

[TheRev]

Jeez Tim, it sounds like you don't trust the government. Why, they "always" have our best interests in mind [] when they enact new laws. Seriously though, Tim is right. Over time, the gun grabbers will eventually set their sights on the airsoft world and life as we know it now, will be over. It won't take an airsoft version of Columbine to do it either. Just a few more stupid incidents is all that is necessary for them to go after our sport. As a "real steel" collector, I know all too well about the "power" of the government to make life miserable for responsible gun owners. The inevitability of restricting laws is a foregone conclusion. It's just a matter of time. However, I'm not completely in agreement with Tim over the group/individual idea of activism. While groups like GOA and NRA have made some compromises, without those groups, the government would have run roughshod over the Constitution long ago and would probably have banned all except the most innocuous of firearms. The GOA and NRA have had to pick their battles carefully. We as airsofters or MilSim enthusiasts or whatever we call ourselves are going to have to pick our battles as well. I believe organization is the key. I am a pilot. I have a license from the FAA that allows me to fly a general aviation aircraft. I also fly ultralights. Currently, Ultralight aircraft are non-regulated by the FAA (with the exception of FAR Part 504) so you don't need a pilot's license to fly them. A few years back, the FAA began to look closely at Ultralight aircraft and the pilots that flew them because a lot of crashes were occuring. Small Ultralight groups began to see the writing on the wall and started to organize. The EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association) played a major role in keeping the Feds at bay by helping Ultralight groups develop internal controls (read "rules" here) to develop piloting skills and other organized standards to make Ultralight "sports" a safer hobby. My point is this, sometimes organization is a good thing. Especially if the goal and purpose result in a positive (for the airsoft community at large) outcome. Sorry for the long post.

TheRev

[Legs]

My point, Curtis.  Good man.  I have not directly stated that we should all band together but I've beeged openly and widely for all adults in this sport to tale a simple first step and foramally exclude all unattended minors from play.  The fact that it is the intent of the law is glaring.  It will be one of the first things addressed by the grabbers when they do turn our way.  Pre-emptive strikes, lads.  They work.

[Raith]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Legs</i>
<br />The fact that it is the intent of the law is glaring.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, Kyle, you have to realize as well that this can be dangerous thinking...  Having the law be up for interpretation of unstated intent can be grounds for disaster.

Changes in the nature of our language have led to what used to be very concise, precise, without question or doubt of interpretation laws into open ended "living document" crap.  I definately believe that much of our law has "unstated" intent and can be prone to extreme perversion without direct, stated intention.  

I'm not dissagreeing with you and this may not be the case here,  but it is something to keep in mind.

[Paco]

You're both right.  There is the "letter" of the law and the "spirit" of the law.  The letter of the law doesn't say that it's not legal for minors to buy/use/play airsoft.  The spirit of the laws that are already on the books DO imply that.  For example - the 1994 AWB:  its original intention by the writers of the bill was to BAN all guns that had certain characteristics.  Gun manufacturers ignored the SPIRIT of the law and went by the letter of the law.  Hence, "post ban" guns were born that were pretty much copies of the original "banned" ones in everything but name and some cosmetic features.

I only bring it up to illustrate the difference between "letter" of the law and "spirit" of the law.  Pretty much all rules have both sides.

[Legs]

Of course this is true, guys...but this is exactly my point.  Why force further definition towards airsoft legislation, which would certainly be more stringent and restrictive, when we enjoy a pretty good setup right now?  I agree that leaving things open for interpretation has led to many follies in the past, but in this case it would be best if airsoft was left alone.  The intent is CLEAR.  Crystal clear.  And if you read any of the labels on airsoft boxes, or read the text of almost all mail order airsoft sites, they state that airsoft guns are not legal for minors to buy.  Higher-powered airguns, with airsoft now falls under, are not for the purchase of minors.  Why not enforce, amongst ourselves, the intent of this law so that further attention is at least less likely to come our way?  If the intent is to keep minors out, does anyone here honestly believe that a law would say any different?  Or worse, that a law would stop there?  The easiest way to kill airsoft is to put in place an importation ban.  Don't kid yourselves by thinking that would be hard for them to pass.  It requires a signature on a piece of paper, and they'd love to sign it.  Cops would support it, neighborhood groups would support it, and Libs everywhere would endorse it openly.  It would never be made important enough to go to a public vote.  Keep kids out now, as the intent directs.  Just do it, and stop debating it.  If we encourage further attention we may as well sell off our stuff...or in my case, sell it off again.

[Ninja]

I think the biggest problem is the profit-oriented mindset of many retailers.

How many retailers do you know that require a proof of age to purchase?
Most game organizers do, but some don't, or some explicitly allow minors to play (we know what I'm talking about here.)

The fact is that we cry "Adults!" but the biggest propagators of the sport are not thinking like we are.

Groups like Airsoft Arizona and groups like that nationwide airsoft coalition can do all they want to make their own rules, but they're not as visible or easily targeted as the retailers and marketers are.  That's where the first changes should happen.  What more can the regional and local groups do?

[TimW]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ninja</i>
<br />I think the biggest problem is the profit-oriented mindset of many retailers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

While you make some valid points, you say the above like it were something bad.

Profit is the driving force behind 99.9% of all businesses.  Unless one has a buttload of money to burn, running a business at a loss is, well, stupid.

I like, no love, gear.  Right now, I am not making a profit because of the startup costs, etc. involved in beginning a business.  However, that is damn-well the reason I got into this...it might not be much of a profit, but profit it is.

If I don't make a profit at this, or at least break even, I will close.  Simple as that.

The Profit-motive is what made America the country it is.

[Paco]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TimW</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ninja</i>
<br />I think the biggest problem is the profit-oriented mindset of many retailers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

While you make some valid points, you say the above like it were something bad.

Profit is the driving force behind 99.9% of all businesses.  Unless one has a buttload of money to burn, running a business at a loss is, well, stupid.

I like, no love, gear.  Right now, I am not making a profit because of the startup costs, etc. involved in beginning a business.  However, that is damn-well the reason I got into this...it might not be much of a profit, but profit it is.

If I don't make a profit at this, or at least break even, I will close.  Simple as that.

The Profit-motive is what made America the country it is.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Are you then saying that it's justifiable for airsoft retailers to sell to minors for profit motives?

[Ninja]

I wasn't saying retailers in general, I specifically meant airsoft retailers.

[KamikazeSM]

As for our part, I've decided that the only way I will sell to a parent of a minor who intends to use the gun is with a notarized agreement stating that parental supervision will be active at any time the minor is near or using the gun.  

It is very easy, especially with internet businesses, to sell to whoever is willing to buy.  With a the disclosure at the beginning of any site requiring age of purchasers to be over 18, once a minor buys, the seller has plausible deniability saying that the person violated the entrance contract, but they're not gonna care as long as it translates into money.  I don't think the problem is necessarily just the minors, but it's the parents who have no role in regulating their child's dangerous activities as well.  I hadn't really thought of it before, but buying a gun for a your kid without supervision is almost like buying alcohol and giving it to minors. Just because minors can't buy it doesn't mean they should be able to by proxy.