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Offline Ninja

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« on: November 22, 2003, 04:37:31 PM »
"Fuller said studies showed that most of the combat in Iraq has been in urban environments and that 95 percent of all engagements have occurred at ranges shorter than 100 yards, where the M-4, at just over 30 inches long, works best."

Interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2003, 05:30:59 PM »
Well, hell, maybe our airsoft guns' range isn't so unrealistic after all... [:P]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline SHIFTY1944

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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2003, 09:21:09 PM »
The mighty Kalishnikov will never die! Its not what your shooting at but what you have to shoot thru.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by SHIFTY1944 »
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Offline Cochise

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« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2003, 12:45:31 PM »
The last part of the article kind of confused me.  In reference to the AK-47 and AK-74:
"Both are said to have better "knockdown" power and can take more of a beating on the battlefield."

Doesn't the AK-74 shoot a similar round to the NATO 5.56?  How is it generating more "knockdown" than the NATO 5.56?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Cochise »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2003, 02:02:05 PM »
The AK74 fires a 5.45 x 39mm bullet.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline azsarge

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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2003, 12:26:33 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HavHav</i>
<br />experts say it still isn't as reliable as the AK-47 or its younger cousin, the AK-74."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I wonder who these "experts" are, keeping in mind that the AK47 came out first.  Also noting that the term AK47 is used freely.  Most AK's in the world these days are AKM's, more of them have been made.  

I'd watch what I read from a Yahoo news release.  Especially sice it was AP.  As for the newest Army news, AFJI, and Army Times get my vote.[8D]

It's no NEWS that the M4 isn't perfect.  I must ask this rhetorical question:
If the M4 sucks so bad, then why do most of the US SOF units use them in one form or another?  They can pick what they use, so why use something so "crappy" as the M4?  

My answer is that the M4 is not as bad as everyone says they are.  They truth is that the US soldier will never be satisfied with his rifle.  It will be used in the worst possible conditions and will be expected to fire.  They capture AK's and use them, and fall in love, but we need to come to realize that the AK will NEVER become a part of our US arsenal.  NO WAY!

The bottom line is that, WHEN PROPERLY MAINTAINED, the M4 is as good as, if not better than, any rifle out there today.  Problems only arise when maintenance is lacking.  The trouble is this happens more times than not in todays battles.

Also, the OICW will not replace the M4.  It will be used in conjunction with it as a genadiers rifle.  It will be replacing the M16/M203 combination.  And here comes my prediction: soldiers will bitch about it when they are used too.  Thee is no perfect rifle, no matter how much you spend.  Kalashnikov simply got lucky with his design!  The AK still has it's flaws.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2003, 03:03:02 PM »
IMHO, the OICW is waaaay too bulky for a combat Infantry weapon.  Plus I don't know how much I would trust anything that uses electronics in a combat environment.  Guess I'm old school.  Give me an M203 and someone that knows how to use it and I'm a happy camper.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline CADD

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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2003, 03:13:21 PM »
Where's the  AUG love?????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by CADD »
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Offline CADD

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2003, 03:15:11 PM »
read this guys:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread ... hread=2846

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
The Ak-47 is a weapon for outside fight only, My rank is Lt. Akido I was in the Somalia Conflict, for being honest, my weapon got stuck, so I grabbed one from the enemy, i got my hands on a M-16, I climbed on top of a little house got on the second floor, and started emptying my ammo packs, for my surprise, it was as accurate as asniper rifle and as deadly as an AK-47


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by CADD »
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Offline Wolf

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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2003, 05:15:55 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also, the OICW will not replace the M4. It will be used in conjunction with it as a genadiers rifle. It will be replacing the M16/M203 combination. And here comes my prediction: soldiers will bitch about it when they are used too. Thee is no perfect rifle, no matter how much you spend. Kalashnikov simply got lucky with his design! The AK still has it's flaws.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
 I remember seeing somewhere that they were trying to make it so the stand alone rifle (no greande launcher) can be used by infantry also.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">IMHO, the OICW is waaaay too bulky for a combat Infantry weapon. Plus I don't know how much I would trust anything that uses electronics in a combat environment. Guess I'm old school. Give me an M203 and someone that knows how to use it and I'm a happy camper.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
 I agree. Funny how they were saying the M4 would be a temporary solution to the M16's problems (the one they talked most about was size) until the OICW started being produced, even though the OICW is huge. I hope they don't try to switch over to the OICW completely [V]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Wolf »
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Offline Ninja

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« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2003, 05:18:36 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by azsarge</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HavHav</i>
<br />experts say it still isn't as reliable as the AK-47 or its younger cousin, the AK-74."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I wonder who these "experts" are, keeping in mind that the AK47 came out first.  Also noting that the term AK47 is used freely.  Most AK's in the world these days are AKM's, more of them have been made.  
...Kalashnikov simply got lucky with his design!  
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I'm not quite sure what you mean.  The AK74 would be "younger."

And as for getting lucky on the design, Eugene Stoner got lucky, too, I suppose.
That's just engineering, for you.  Now if you're making a subtle knock on his or the Russian's abilities... [:D]

The fact is he took the MP44/Stg. 44 and made it into a cheap, darn good rifle.  

Going by your logic, Christian, if the AK is so flawed, how come most armies around the world use them in one form or another.  And it's not just that they're readily available, the things are still produced the world over. Demand is there for a reason.

I'm no particular AK fan, but darn it if they don't have a compelling argument.  

(By the way, the AN-94 is <i>spectacular.</i>)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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Offline SHIFTY1944

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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2003, 08:22:31 PM »
Christian,being a AK owner,I see no flaws in design and reliability.The gun can be picky about the brand of ammo its shooting.I have used many.When you find the type it likes...you can shoot the thing forever without cleaning it.You can't argue that the Kalishnikov is the most durable,battle hardened weapon there is.I would rather have a .30 weapon over a hi-power .22 anyday! The M16 got alot of men killed in vietnam...via the AK!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by SHIFTY1944 »
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Offline Legs

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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2003, 09:44:34 PM »
The AK is the strongest of the black guns.  There is no way to dispute that.  Why the US SF units use the M4 is a question I cannot answer.  I have struggled with it, sincerely, for years.  The M16 line is simply too fragile for combat use.  The only thing I could come up with, and it's a blind guess, is that the missions of the SF units are usually not prolonged over as much time as a basic infantryman's mission, so they have less trouble with keeping the guns clean.  Otherwise, there is NO reason I can think of.  The M4 is accurate and very comfortable ergonaomically, but it cannot compare with the better weapons available today, including many older guns like the AK and the Galil.  If we must use the .223, there are several superior options.  The OICW idea is a death sentance to soldiers, too.  Electronics have no place in the dust and weather of a battlefield.  If your GUN can jam due to grit, what will electronics do?  Way too bulky (remember my motto?  BULK KILLS!!) and far too different from what has been used for ages now.  If I had to grab one rifle, and one rifle only, it would be either the AK, or the M1 Garand...both are rifles which have proven reliability and power and decades on end of followers who know what they are talking about.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Legs »
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Offline Legs

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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2003, 09:46:36 PM »
And one more thing:  Don't blame Eugene Stoner for the M16.  HIs rifle design was THE STONER, and it was a superior rifle.  The changes that resulted in the M16 were mandated/requested, and it effectively ruined his original intent.  Thankfully the Stoner is largely reproduced today in the Robinson Armament C96 rifles...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Legs »
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Offline Ninja

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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2003, 10:26:03 PM »
He did get paid a dollar for every one the government made, though.

(I wasn't blaming, the original credit, more or less, belongs to him.)

If we're not making this into another caliber debate, the G36 is as fine a combat rifle as any in service. AR18 gas system, too...so I guess we thank Eugene again for that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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