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Offline Harley

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« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2003, 09:48:21 AM »
Not bashing or defending any particular weapon platform here, but I wanted to note this.  As far as the AK goes, I saw a discovery channel show some years back about Afganistan during the Russian invasion.  It showed local gunsmiths building AK's with basic hand tools from scratch, something you couldn't easily do for an M16.  I think one of the main reasons the AK is so widely used is that it is cheap to manufacture which is a main concern for poor countries wanting weapons but can't afford to spend a lot of money.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline azsarge

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« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2003, 10:50:32 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Legs</i>
<br />Electronics have no place in the dust and weather of a battlefield.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Now Kyle, how happy do you think Delta Dan would be if you took away his GPS, MATT, SMRS, TRS, MBITR, INOD, TDFD, and RAMS?  Not too happy!  I understand what you are saying, and I agree that sometimes new technology can fail and cost lives.  The thing is that what sets us apart from our enemies, not to mention what defines the Army XXI, is kickass new technology.  Some of it's field tested and has proven it's worth.  Some of it sucks and gets the can.  The OICW is something of a great object to argue over, but is also something whose very design characteristics DEFINE our future military.  Computers, electronics, and other battery-powered goodies are here to stay.  Sure the OICW is bulky, but in it's latest (3rd) version, it is no heavier than the M16/m203 combination, and barely more bulky than a G36/AG36.  

Wolf, as for the lower rifle being able to fire as a stand-alone weapon, you are right.  When I made those comments, I was referring to the OICW as  whole, not the XM8 rifle you speak of.

The AK is also a great piece to argue over.  On one hand it's reliable, blah blah blah.  On the other, it's design was concieved over 56 years ago.  It is a very symbol of the cold war, and something the US fought for many years.  The rifle has killed countless US servicemen, and is the weapon  of choice for today's enemies and terrorist organizations.  Let me ask this:  Do you thnk the US would want to use a rifle based on this platform?  The fact that anyone would even suggest such an adoption is completely ludicrous, it will never happen.  It may be a great weapon throughout history, but will always be viewed as the "bad guys" rifle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »
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Offline CADD

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« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2003, 11:42:09 AM »
Sarge I thought we were the bad guys in the eyes of the world.... I always played the part of what people thought of me.. if one gets the impression I'm an A-hole then I'm gonna be one to you for judging me before knowing me.  Same goes for the world... how they reflect towards my country is the distain or dislike or apathy or hatred or respect what ever... that I will hold for them.  If we are gonna be the bad guy and the view unchangable then I say let them have the view with reason.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by CADD »
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Offline Legs

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« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2003, 10:54:09 PM »
It's dumb to assume that the AK would ever be considered for US use, sure.  It's the same reason that so many other great rifles won't be looked at either.  My point is that other than the new Robinson there are no US-made rifles that could be considered, and that's ridiculous given our miltary history.  We bought an Italian pistol for our sidearms...why not build a plant here to produce a better foreign rifle?

And the GPS is an accessory, not the weapon that is keeping you alive.  You need to know where you're going, but you NEED that gun to work when Mr. Baddie steps from around that rock in front of you.

The AK does symbolize a lot that is negative in the past and present, but if it's aging system remains as reliable today as it was when it was born, why has the US NOT YET LEARNED FROM IT??!!  We tried to emulate the MG42 with our own M60 after seeing how crushing the German gun was in WWII...why not build upon the idea of the AK or better yet...the Galil system?  In WWII we used powerful and durable guns.  And the bad guys did not like them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Legs »
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Offline azsarge

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« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2003, 01:21:10 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Legs</i>
<br />It's dumb to assume that the AK would ever be considered for US use, sure.  It's the same reason that so many other great rifles won't be looked at either.  My point is that other than the new Robinson there are no US-made rifles that could be considered, and that's ridiculous given our miltary history.  We bought an Italian pistol for our sidearms...why not build a plant here to produce a better foreign rifle?

And the GPS is an accessory, not the weapon that is keeping you alive.  You need to know where you're going, but you NEED that gun to work when Mr. Baddie steps from around that rock in front of you.

The AK does symbolize a lot that is negative in the past and present, but if it's aging system remains as reliable today as it was when it was born, why has the US NOT YET LEARNED FROM IT??!!  We tried to emulate the MG42 with our own M60 after seeing how crushing the German gun was in WWII...why not build upon the idea of the AK or better yet...the Galil system?  In WWII we used powerful and durable guns.  And the bad guys did not like them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You put the other side of the story into words so eloquent even I agree.[:D]

On a related note, the newer US designs seem to lean more toward tomorrows technology rather than builiding on what works today.  This goes for everything from Assault rifles to Tanks, Aircraft, etc.  It got the Crusader canned and may do so for many other "Force XXI" projects.  We have our head in the clouds about what is high-tech, and do not worry about what works well today.  The US motto should be "If it ain't broke, make it high-tech!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2003, 06:41:25 AM »
All I can say is this... I wouldn't want to be in the middle of a firefight and have my batteries and or electronics crap out on me rendering part or all of my weapon useless.  An EMP can take out all of our fancy electronics in a heartbeat.  It can't however disable a basic weapon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline HavHav

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« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2003, 07:17:43 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...An EMP can take out all of our fancy electronics in a heartbeat. It can't however disable a basic weapon...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Very good point. Lets hope they think of that before they start building them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by HavHav »
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Offline azsarge

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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2003, 10:20:13 AM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HavHav</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...An EMP can take out all of our fancy electronics in a heartbeat. It can't however disable a basic weapon...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Very good point. Lets hope they think of that before they start building them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Today's threats do not use such high-tech devices.  I'm sure they have thought of that, and decided it to not be a problem.  After all, it would only destry the electronic omponents (ie Fire Control, HE fuzes, rangefinder, designator, etc).  The rifle would still fire.

Perhaps tomorrows enemies will be a bit more on-par with us as far as technology goes.  If we get into it with Asia, you can bet on this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by azsarge »
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Offline Harley

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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2003, 10:34:02 AM »
But I wouldn't be able to use my fancy grenade laucher with air burst capability.  Now if I had my trusty M203 and some bouncing Betty rounds I could still take them out!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Harley »
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Offline Raith

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« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2003, 12:49:56 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by azsarge</i>
<br />Today's threats do not use such high-tech devices.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean that its not a consideration, of course.  We didn't ditch our Los Angeles' and Tridents 20 years ago...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Perhaps tomorrows enemies will be a bit more on-par with us as far as technology goes.  If we get into it with Asia, you can bet on this.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

..and this is why.

Besides, we've got to have <i>something</i> to fight aliens or machines or something with, right? [:P]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Raith »
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Offline Ninja

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« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2003, 02:12:58 PM »
I'm going to agree with John and Matt (Raith) here.  Not to mention that it is in fact really easy to build an EMP device.  Heck there was an article a few years ago on how to do it in a Popular Mechanics.  If the government believes terrorists can build nuclear weapons, they sure as heck can build a simple EMP device.

Again, we're very much thinking Cold War here still.  The reason that more people use the M16 and AK is because the two biggest military powers built MILLIONS of them and gave them to everybody and their guerilla-fighter mom.

I think that the SIG rifles seem to be a very good balance between modular ability and craftsmanship with reliability.  It's an AK gas system.  Also, the Galil is supposedly one of the most idiot-proof guns out there?  

The fact is that we're armchair quartermastering here.  We can debate endlessly about the merits of these things (rifles, calibers, etc.) but most of us have no actual experience being shot at or shooting at human beings. Though I know some, in fact, do.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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Offline CADD

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« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2003, 02:37:06 PM »
an old friend was airborn in army... he swore up and down loyalty to the M4....  thats all ill say but I love the AUG personally
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by CADD »
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Offline HavHav

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« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2003, 02:50:06 PM »
Lets say they were to switch to the OICW. Would Special Forces units still use the M4? Would they be required to use their current weapon until a carbine version of the OICW is made? How would that work?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by HavHav »
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Offline Paco

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« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2003, 03:24:15 PM »
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ninja</i>
<br />I'm going to agree with John and Matt (Raith) here.  Not to mention that it is in fact really easy to build an EMP device.  Heck there was an article a few years ago on how to do it in a Popular Mechanics.  If the government believes terrorists can build nuclear weapons, they sure as heck can build a simple EMP device. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I saw that atricle.  However, it's nowhere NEAR the size and power to take out a even a SQUAD of men at range.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Paco »
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Offline Ninja

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« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2003, 03:51:18 PM »
This article I read was on building a pure EMP bomb to disable a city.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Ninja »
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