Author Topic: Suckback, fact or false correlation?  (Read 2524 times)

Offline axisofoil

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Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« on: January 22, 2010, 12:10:16 PM »
I don't believe suckback exists.

Matching barrel/cylinder size (or hpa pressure or stuff like that) IS important, but not for the reason of eliminating 'suckback'.


From what I can see, the definition of suckback:
Suckback occurs if the BB is still in the barrel when the piston begins it's backward movement, thereby creating a vacuum and in effect 'pulling' the bb backwards, destroying fps and accuracy.

My reasons that this ISN'T the case:
When the piston is moving backwards: The nozzle is disengaged from the hopup unit, also, the piston doesn't seal as well on the way backwards. Because of this, the 'maximum' suckback you could get is equalizing the barrel behind the bb to near atmospheric pressure.

From the time the piston head moves past whatever vents you have in your cylinder, or just starts moving forward, the bb begins accelerating. Say you have a modest gun, about 300 fps. Even taking into account that it takes time to accelerate, the average velocity is ~45.72 m/s, assuming linear acceleration. Even with a long barrel (550mm), it takes just .01 seconds to leave the barrel at this speed. Assuming your gun has a moderate rof, say, 20rps, that's only 1/5 of the cycle of the gearbox. The piston stays forward for approximately 1/2 - 2/3 of the cycle (Look at the sector gear) of the gearbox. Since your bb has left the barrel before your piston begins moving back, whether or not the nozzle has disengaged, which it has.

There is a chance with high-fps guns, with very long barrels, that your bb will leave the barrel before your nozzle has disconnected. This is not the 'fps drop' usually assosciated with "suckback". This CAN somewhat emulate the results of the standard 'suckback' explanation by creating a small vacuum pressure behind the bb if too small of a cylinder is used... simply because nothing behind the bb is venting before it leaves the barrel. This is mathematically a very small vacuum, if any. Your bb still isn't being 'sucked back by the rearward movement of the piston". This is one of the closest ideas to suckback that I feel makes any sense. Even with this, it won't hurt your accuracy, because it will do the same thing every cycle, and doesn't create turbulent airflow, it will just drop your fps slightly.


The reason for ported cylinders:
Blowby, a very noticable problem, occurs when you use too big of a cylinder. You put too much air behind the bb, and it rushes out around the bb when it leaves the barrel. As it does this, it's extremely turbulent and will seriously hinder your accuracy.

The reason too small of a cylinder hurts your accuracy AND fps:
Barrels, they aren't perfect. BBs, neither are they.
When you lose pressure behind your bb (whether it be to the small amount of vacuum, or a vent to atmospheric), it loses the cushion of air that is trying to keep it centered in the barrel, and begins to roll along the bottom surface. Because of this rolling, you have extra friction through the barrel (reducing fps), and your hopup is being counteracted by this friction along the bottom of the bb(Reduces velocity further by requiring you to turn your hopup on higher). If your bb's and barrel aren't perfect, then you get inconsistent 'rolling' effects, greatly impacting your accuracy/precision.




Logic for those who think suckback exists:
If I use a cylinder for a 200mm barrel length on a 500mm barrel, I will get some major suckback, right?
In fact, I should get the same amount of suckback (200mm's worth) as I originally put into the bb. So the bb should just STOP in the barrel, right? Since the same amount of energy that was put into the bb was taken out of it, it should come to a complete stop at 400mm in the barrel. Why doesn't this occur if suckback exists?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline busta_cap

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 12:28:22 PM »
Eh, too busy at the moment to grab some statistical data..But it exists in one way or another...


On a somewhat related note..I have actually the exact opposite of suckback. In my quest to find the ultimate seal against the bb, hopup nub and nozzle..I am finding myself cranking out over 500fps shots with less than 30psi of pressure ](*,) .

If someone is willing to fork over the wholesale cost of a bar 10(about 50 bucks) I will gladly grab one and demonstrate this effect with different cylinder volumes and barrel lengths.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Uchiha Itachi

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 12:36:15 PM »
I've built 2 G36s with 650mm barrels with a FPS lower than 400. Neither one suffered from suck back.

The first one was a CA G36 with a Modify Polycarb, Modify Metal Piston Head, Echo1 S110+ spring, either a Systema or Madbull Blue 60d, and a Madbull 650 PSG1 hop up cut. It fired consistently at around 382fp.

Second one was a stock JG G36  shooting around 360 normally. I never chrono'd it when I had the long barrel on but I could this weekend if it's wanted. It's just a G36 with a Madbull Blue 60d and a 650mm Madbull AEG cut.

Both guns had excellent accuracy with .2s well beyond standard engagement distances. I ended up ditching it due to rampant 13 year old girls thinking I was cheating(FPS) and doing so in return.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline ultimentra

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 12:39:04 PM »
Here is proof that it happened.

I used to own an E1 P90, bought upgrade parts for it like an M4 length G&G 6.04 363mm tightbore. The original barrel was 297mm long. Before the upgrade the FPS was chrono'd at a field for 334 FPS, and I got fair groupings at 120ft +. After the upgrade my gun chrono'd at 215 FPS, the accuracy was terrible, and I was lucky to get a 50 ft distance on my bbs. This happened at the Tucson game The Hills Have Eyes from last year, and my god it sucked. I asked people on the interwebs what happened and they said "vacuum effect, you need a new cylinder that can handle the barrel length". There ya go.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 12:43:38 PM »
Quote from: "ultimentra"
Here is proof that it happened.

I used to own an E1 P90, bought upgrade parts for it like an M4 length G&G 6.04 363mm tightbore. The original barrel was 297mm long. Before the upgrade the FPS was chrono'd at a field for 334 FPS, and I got fair groupings at 120ft +. After the upgrade my gun chrono'd at 215 FPS, the accuracy was terrible, and I was lucky to get a 50 ft distance on my bbs. This happened at the Tucson game The Hills Have Eyes from last year, and my god it sucked. I asked people on the interwebs what happened and they said "vacuum effect, you need a new cylinder that can handle the barrel length". There ya go.


I would call that a false correlation. The sun and moon move in what appears to be a circular pattern in the sky, the Earth must be the center of the universe, right?

Terrible accuracy and lower fps can be explained in other ways.

Quote from: "axisofoil"
The reason too small of a cylinder hurts your accuracy AND fps:
Barrels, they aren't perfect. BBs, neither are they.
When you lose pressure behind your bb (whether it be to the small amount of vacuum, or a vent to atmospheric), it loses the cushion of air that is trying to keep it centered in the barrel, and begins to roll along the bottom surface. Because of this rolling, you have extra friction through the barrel (reducing fps), and your hopup is being counteracted by this friction along the bottom of the bb(Reduces velocity further by requiring you to turn your hopup on higher). If your bb's and barrel aren't perfect, then you get inconsistent 'rolling' effects, greatly impacting your accuracy/precision.
?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whiskey11

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2010, 12:45:41 PM »
I'll wade in this one...  Maybe not to address the issue of Suckback as in piston moving rearword, but the issue of smaller cylinder volumes than the barrel.  The issue isnt suck back per-se, I dont think that was the issue they are refering too.  The reason you match them is if you run out of air before the BB exits the barrel you change the pressure behind the BB.  This occurs most prominently in bolt action rifles, where the piston slams home and does NOT retract and nor does the air nozzle.  The same issue can happen in AEG's.  The reason there is any "suck back" is the pressure differences are causing the BB to slow down because the low pressure created behind the BB when the volume of the container expands but the volume of air does not change.  Air pressing from in front of the BB then tries to equalize the pressure of the system which causes the problem of "suck back" as the BB is in the way and friction associated with the air moving around the BB in the opposite direction but since the BB isnt a perfect seal it does not slow down enough to cause the BB to return to battery.  

The only way that any piston motion is going to affect the BB is during the chambering process.  It's believed that TM uses the low pressure that forms from the piston moving backwords to assist in feeding BB's... the science behind it is relative and not exact.

One thing can be said about small cylinder volumes and long barrels... Ever put an M16 barrel in an M4?  Lets rephrase that... I have an ICS M16 and owned an ICS M4... I took the ICS M4 and chronoed it with TSD .20's (not my fav, but hey, only .20's I have).  Chronos at 400 FPS... I then took that upper reciever, M4 cylinder and all and popped it into my M16 which has the same barrel brand (Madbull 6.03) in M4 and M16 lengths respectivly... the FPS difference was 70 FPS as the M16 then chronoed at 330 w/ TSD .20's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline axisofoil

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2010, 12:50:35 PM »
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Eh, too busy at the moment to grab some statistical data..But it exists in one way or another...


On a somewhat related note..I have actually the exact opposite of suckback. In my quest to find the ultimate seal against the bb, hopup nub and nozzle..I am finding myself cranking out over 500fps shots with less than 30psi of pressure ](*,) .

If someone is willing to fork over the wholesale cost of a bar 10(about 50 bucks) I will gladly grab one and demonstrate this effect with different cylinder volumes and barrel lengths.

Statistically, yes, suckback is a decent explanation for what's happening, it's just that there are other things that are soooo much more likely to be happening that explain all the effects.
Also, bar10/vsr/etc work differently than AEGs, right? I don't know enough about the workings of bolt-snipers to say one way or the other. But I would assume that rearward piston movement doesn't happen in them until you pull the bolt back, making running out of air much more likely the cause of an adverse pressure gradient than rearward movement of the piston creating the vacuum.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline axisofoil

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2010, 12:56:03 PM »
Quote from: "Whiskey11"
1. The reason there is any "suck back" is the pressure differences are causing the BB to slow down because the low pressure created behind the BB when the volume of the container expands but the volume of air does not change.  Air pressing from in front of the BB then tries to equalize the pressure of the system which causes the problem of "suck back" as the BB is in the way and friction associated with the air moving around the BB in the opposite direction but since the BB isnt a perfect seal it does not slow down enough to cause the BB to return to battery.  

2.The only way that any piston motion is going to affect the BB is during the chambering process.  It's believed that TM uses the low pressure that forms from the piston moving backwords to assist in feeding BB's... the science behind it is relative and not exact.
.

1. As I mentioned, this does happen. Although larger losses would be assosciated with the higher pressure difference around the bb when it's being accelerated than the lower pressure gradient when decelerated... so it's even more negligible than you pointed out.

2. Cool... I don't see how that would work very much, if at all, but awesome if it does.

3. I accidentally deleted the part for single-shot, and you're absolutely right, running out of air for them is a much bigger problem, especially since they (single-shot users) make sure everything seals sooooo much better than most AEG users.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline busta_cap

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 01:05:31 PM »
Quote from: "axisofoil"
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Eh, too busy at the moment to grab some statistical data..But it exists in one way or another...


On a somewhat related note..I have actually the exact opposite of suckback. In my quest to find the ultimate seal against the bb, hopup nub and nozzle..I am finding myself cranking out over 500fps shots with less than 30psi of pressure ](*,) .

If someone is willing to fork over the wholesale cost of a bar 10(about 50 bucks) I will gladly grab one and demonstrate this effect with different cylinder volumes and barrel lengths.

Statistically, yes, suckback is a decent explanation for what's happening, it's just that there are other things that are soooo much more likely to be happening that explain all the effects.
Also, bar10/vsr/etc work differently than AEGs, right? I don't know enough about the workings of bolt-snipers to say one way or the other. But I would assume that rearward piston movement doesn't happen in them until you pull the bolt back, making running out of air much more likely the cause of an adverse pressure gradient than rearward movement of the piston creating the vacuum.


The phenomenon Whiskey and I are referring to is most common in bolt action SPRING snipers such as bar10's and VSR-10's. Now true suckback in an AEG is a different story..

The issue with the bolt action rifles is finding the correct cylinder length(or volume of air) to match your barrel length and diameter. The reason I say the Inner diameter is because we all know when you tighten up that barrel inside and create a better seal and loss of pressure getting around the bb, the bb is going to move faster and the PSI behind the bb is going to be more efficient in getting that BB out of the barrel quicker. The most comment 'sweet spot' about a 500-550fps VSR type setup with a 6.01-6.03 inner barrel seems to be decidedly around 530-550mm. Evidence?
Red Dog from Airsoft Retreat demonstrates what the proper combination of parts can yield in a SPRING rifle in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbcvYollz1s

Gas rifles are a bit different, because they are not limited by the cylinder volume on either aspects. Yes you need a certain PSI for the bb to keep a linear acceleration throughout the entire barrel, but you can up that pressure and keep going longer and longer in barrel length.. Now on the other hand, when it comes to a little airball that is 6mm in diameter and not perfect..There is a limit. In the 10 or so years airsoft has been very popular in the US and the major developments over seas..They have really only pushed the limit of engagement a hundred and fifty feet or so..Keeping under 600fps. If you really wanted to see range go nuts, bump up to an 8mm BB that is of Maruzen super grand master or Bioval BBBMAX quality, get a perfect inner barrel like the PDI .01 steel series and you are in business..The problem is no one is making this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline axisofoil

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 01:14:38 PM »
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Quote from: "axisofoil"
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Eh, too busy at the moment to grab some statistical data..But it exists in one way or another...


On a somewhat related note..I have actually the exact opposite of suckback. In my quest to find the ultimate seal against the bb, hopup nub and nozzle..I am finding myself cranking out over 500fps shots with less than 30psi of pressure ](*,) .

If someone is willing to fork over the wholesale cost of a bar 10(about 50 bucks) I will gladly grab one and demonstrate this effect with different cylinder volumes and barrel lengths.

Statistically, yes, suckback is a decent explanation for what's happening, it's just that there are other things that are soooo much more likely to be happening that explain all the effects.
Also, bar10/vsr/etc work differently than AEGs, right? I don't know enough about the workings of bolt-snipers to say one way or the other. But I would assume that rearward piston movement doesn't happen in them until you pull the bolt back, making running out of air much more likely the cause of an adverse pressure gradient than rearward movement of the piston creating the vacuum.


The phenomenon Whiskey and I are referring to is most common in bolt action SPRING snipers such as bar10's and VSR-10's. Now true suckback in an AEG is a different story..

The issue with the bolt action rifles is finding the correct cylinder length(or volume of air) to match your barrel length and diameter. The reason I say the Inner diameter is because we all know when you tighten up that barrel inside and create a better seal and loss of pressure getting around the bb, the bb is going to move faster and the PSI behind the bb is going to be more efficient in getting that BB out of the barrel quicker. The most comment 'sweet spot' about a 500-550fps VSR type setup with a 6.01-6.03 inner barrel seems to be decidedly around 530-550mm. Evidence?
Red Dog from Airsoft Retreat demonstrates what the proper combination of parts can yield in a SPRING rifle in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbcvYollz1s

Gas rifles are a bit different, because they are not limited by the cylinder volume on either aspects. Yes you need a certain PSI for the bb to keep a linear acceleration throughout the entire barrel, but you can up that pressure and keep going longer and longer in barrel length.. Now on the other hand, when it comes to a little airball that is 6mm in diameter and not perfect..There is a limit. In the 10 or so years airsoft has been very popular in the US and the major developments over seas..They have really only pushed the limit of engagement a hundred and fifty feet or so..Keeping under 600fps. If you really wanted to see range go nuts, bump up to an 8mm BB that is of Maruzen super grand master or Bioval BBBMAX quality, get a perfect inner barrel like the PDI .01 steel series and you are in business..The problem is no one is making this.


I agree with that. All of it actually.
I'm just tired of being told that in my AEG, that suckback is limiting my performance, and it just doesn't exist.
Running out of air on a springer happens. Not pumping enough in on a gas, I assume happens. But in any of those cases, suckback isn't the reason. Not having enough volume to create a negligible fps loss at the end of the barrel is the problem.

Do the effects described by suckback occur? Yes, I'm not denying that. Are they caused by 'suckback'? absolutely not. :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline busta_cap

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 01:16:43 PM »
Well, you could more accurately describe it as 'reduced liner acceleration due to the inconstant volume of gas propellant upon exit of inner barrel"
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Offline axisofoil

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Re: Suckback, fact or false correlation?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 01:27:13 PM »
Quote from: "busta_cap"
Well, you could more accurately describe it as 'reduced liner acceleration due to the inconstant volume of gas propellant upon exit of inner barrel"

I would entirely agree with that being the cause of limited barrel length for maximum performance!!! :D

+ 18 gold stars for busta cap (I'd give you 20, but you're kinda the one who triggered this whole rant. :P)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 05:00:00 PM by Guest »