AZ trust Land & permits

[PhoenixShadowCompany]

FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.
Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.
Peter

So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .

[Archer]

FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.
Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.
Peter

So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .

the law is alot like the bible, it is how you read it... and ignorance is bliss. i say we get the permit and play dumb.... i like to push the limits my slef also Peter. but that is my thoughts on the process.

[bigwavedave]

FWIW, this will be the 3rd or 4th time that Hatfield has been declared dead since I started playing there ten years ago. As long as folks are willing, it'll likely stay active until they sell it off and raze it like they did with the NE section of Hatfield, now known as the empty dirt lot off of 107th and Happy Valley Parkway.

For me it's simple. The deputy said a permit would work. We know it doesn't, but if he comes back to enforce it, he's enforcing what he believes, so I'll show him my permit. If another one comes, well gosh officer, the deputy here on 2/12 told us a permit was fine, sorry about that.

Then again, I'm always one to push the rules. YMMV.

Peter

I can totally understand your POV, in that It really sucks that there is so much State land that is available and it's been deemed "illegal" for all kinds of activities.  I used to ride my CRF450 under the Powerlines at P&D on State Land three times a week, untill some idiot politicians decided that reducing my dust in the desert was a way to get federal air quality $$.   I sent a letter to all my state represenatives telling them what kind of BS I thought it was...and then I sold my bikes... 

We have tons of STL in the East Valley that would be great to hold regular weekly games at, BUT....we don't go there becasue it's "illegal" and I/we don't want to bring airsoft into the limelight anymore than it needs to be, especially in defiance of existing laws that we are well aware of.

I have no doubt that the deputy who made contact hasn't got a clue and so a permit may get you off the hook if he shows again, however it may not be the long term solution or the wisest idea.  I'm sure just about every person reading these forums has played illegaly at some point or another, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

The USFS has been extremely liberal with respect to our attendance and hosting of games on USFS land, also there is tons of BLM land that is adjacent to the NW valley that may be suitable for gameplay.  If you use ONLY Bio BB's and make contact with any LEOs in a positive manner there is rarely an issue.

4 peaks AO is approximately 35 miles from the intersection with SR202 and Country club drive / SR87.
Mt Ord is another 15 miles or so.  These are all close enough to reduce the issues with Hatfield.

There are also afew AO's in the East Valley that are not posted on AA boards because many of the airsoft vets don't want irresponsible actions by afew players to cause long term issues, unfortunately untill airsofters begin to self police by obeying the (often stupid) laws and making sure those who attend games are squared away there's gonna be problems.

[XavierMace]

the law is alot like the bible, it is how you read it... and ignorance is bliss.

It's how you read it?

An Trust Land Recreation Permit does not permit target shooting, paintball, airsoft, recreational flying (i.e. ultralite aircraft), vehicular 'rock hopping', sand railing, fireworks, or congregating in groups larger than 19 people (see Event Permit).

I must be getting feeble in my old age.  Explain to me how you read that in a manner that says it's OK.  Suck it up, act like responsible adults, set an example for the children, and find somewhere else to play.  You sound like a 13 year old trying to justify playing in the park behind Walgreens.

[Shadow]

The USFS has been extremely liberal with respect to our attendance and hosting of games on USFS land, also there is tons of BLM land that is adjacent to the NW valley that may be suitable for gameplay.  If you use ONLY Bio BB's and make contact with any LEOs in a positive manner there is rarely an issue.

BLM land is your best bet with Forest Service being second.  I've previously contacted the AZ BLM and have an email from the AZ office in PHX stating exactly this:

Mr. Rose,
 
Your email concerning BLM lands and organizing air soft events was directed
to me.  Sorry for the delay.
 
If it is just casual use no permits are needed.  Just make sure that you
are on BLM land, and not on private land or State of Arizona lands.  In the
event that you are setting up a formal air soft event you might need a
recreational permit from the BLM.  Call the BLM Phoenix District Office at
623-580-5500 for the necessary instructions on how to file a permit.
 
Good luck.
 
Michael J. Werner
U.S. Bureau of Land Management
Arizona State Office
One North Central Avenue, Suite 800
Phoenix, Arizona  85004-4427
Phone: (602) 417-9561
Fax: (602) 417-9454
Michael_Werner@blm.gov

[punkerr1313]

What about TNF near Lake Bartlett? I've played one game up there at a quad/dirtbike trail staging area and all the riders were nice and waved. Not sure about the legality. TNF is pretty large though there has to be some land in there that can be used for airsoft without having to drive halfway between the valley and flagstaff.

[Mooncruiser]

TNF is ok if under 75 people, then you need a permit.

[Flick]

BLM land is your best bet with Forest Service being second.  I've previously contacted the AZ BLM and have an email from the AZ office in PHX stating exactly this:

This is good news indeed, then, as there is a decent patch of BLM land about 1/4 mile west of the Hatfield AO. Perhaps we merely switch to it?

So what your saying is break the law and what they don't know won't hurt them. Isn't that hazardous to the Airsoft community .

No, I'm saying that the direction given to us by the person enforcing the law was that the specified permit would be sufficient for him to allow play to continue. He stated that he has one that he uses for paintball so one assumes he's aware of exactly what his fellow LEOs enforce. His first concern, upon making initial contact, was to make sure we weren't out there driving vehicles. He then seemed to lose a little interest when he learned we weren't.

For all we know, their biggest focus on areas like that are ORVs and the airsoft / paintball games aren't of interest unless someone complains, particularly in areas like that that aren't being maintained and are going to be torn down when "progress" continues.

So, I stand by what I said. I'll get a permit and continue to play, knowing that I am doing so by the suggestion of the Law *Enforcement* Officer that patrols the area, assuming that others do the same. If not, moot, and I'll play elsewhere.

Anyway, I like TPA_shadow's recommendation best - we should just shift west and watch the boundaries.

Peter

[hieu66]

I second with Flick, if it's not fenced and entrance is provided. I'll go if you guys will.

[punkerr1313]

Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.

[bigwavedave]

Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.

Obviously being close to any campgrounds is a no go, specific shooting regulations are on the Tonto Website with a Restriction Map.  Read it and follow it.  And yes You are shooting, so yes they all apply, with that said I would always recommend finding areas that are away from public in general so that law enforcement isn't encouraged to put a special order out that stops airsoft play on the Tonto, which is totally possilbe if somebody screws it up.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188

[Old Dog]

Does anyone know of some good AOs in TNF that aren't too far from the entrance in the Cave Creek/Carefree area? Kinda off topic but as long as were talking about legality I'd like to find spots to play that aren't going to get the community and I in trouble.

Obviously being close to any campgrounds is a no go, specific shooting regulations are on the Tonto Website with a Restriction Map.  Read it and follow it.  And yes You are shooting, so yes they all apply, with that said I would always recommend finding areas that are away from public in general so that law enforcement isn't encouraged to put a special order out that stops airsoft play on the Tonto, which is totally possilbe if somebody screws it up.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/recreation/?cid=stelprdb5245188

Dave is right on and another thought is that if and WHEN and that seems to be a distinct possibility, one must be ready for the probability of their guns and maybe even their gear being confiscated when playing in a restricted area and the man shows up...

IS IT WORTH THAT???

[F.O.B]

So, I stand by what I said. I'll get a permit and continue to play, knowing that I am doing so by the suggestion of the Law *Enforcement* Officer that patrols the area, assuming that others do the same. If not, moot, and I'll play elsewhere.

Anyway, I like TPA_shadow's recommendation best - we should just shift west and watch the boundaries.

Peter

I couldn't agree with you more Peter.
We'll have smaller games that are better organized and more strategic.

[Flick]

I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.

Wow, you had to sell your father? That's pretty rough!

(Sorry, thought a moment of levity might be appreciated.)

[bigwavedave]

@BigWaveDave

I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.

yeah and they pretty much pulled the

@BigWaveDave

I used to ride alot out in the desert with the recreational permit, before stuff changed around, I too had to sell my dirtbike, along with my father.

Right before they shut it down i crested a jump and almost turned a city of scottsdale pd into a whoop...lol.   I would love to get some local gun advocacy groups to support airsoft to get a voice in the political arena.  is there anybody locally?   i dont mean nra