AZ trust Land & permits

[Kileyhaz]

Freznel, don't be so anxious to knuckle under. First a preface, I am a senior criminal defense attorney, and have handled every case from Possession of Marijuanna (POM) to 1st Degree Murder.

Just because the government has over-reached in their law writing, doesn't mean these things stand up in court. There are many unenforced laws on the books in Arizona and every other state. If we get a "permit" to waive at any law enforcement officer who shows up, 99 out of 100 will just go away when they assess us as "harmless". Harmless with permit pushes that to within decimal points of 100%. In all likelihood, the exemption of paintball and airsoft, is so that people don't try to play airsoft up on Squaw Peak, or in one of the State Parks in the urban areas. It scares the hikers.

Now, should we happen to draw "Officer Asshat", who not only has a "hate on" for airsofters, but has carefully researched state land use permits, then he may (horrors) write us a ticket. At that point we can go to the courthouse to discuss the issue with a judge. I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.

So the moral of the story is its OK to 'bend' (read: break) the law as long as we can convince a judge that what is written in the state trust land public information site, verbatim, doesn't apply to us because we purchased a permit (under false pretense) but used bio bb's?  No disrespect intended but its attitude like these that contribute to us being a stones throw away from having additional legislature level at our sport.

[Fresnel]

Freznel, don't be so anxious to knuckle under. First a preface, I am a senior criminal defense attorney, and have handled every case from Possession of Marijuanna (POM) to 1st Degree Murder.

Just because the government has over-reached in their law writing, doesn't mean these things stand up in court. There are many unenforced laws on the books in Arizona and every other state. If we get a "permit" to waive at any law enforcement officer who shows up, 99 out of 100 will just go away when they assess us as "harmless". Harmless with permit pushes that to within decimal points of 100%. In all likelihood, the exemption of paintball and airsoft, is so that people don't try to play airsoft up on Squaw Peak, or in one of the State Parks in the urban areas. It scares the hikers.

Now, should we happen to draw "Officer Asshat", who not only has a "hate on" for airsofters, but has carefully researched state land use permits, then he may (horrors) write us a ticket. At that point we can go to the courthouse to discuss the issue with a judge. I'd be happy to represent us at no charge, it's my sport too. With the permit in hand, and my explanation that we all use bio-bb's, so there isn't even any litter, the judge will likely dismiss the ticket. If we get a bad judge, the worst thing that happens is we pay a tiny bit of money into the state's general revenue fund. Think of it as a use tax.

If we want to keep using Hatfield, there is absolutely no reason to give up so easily.

First of all, allow me to state my inherent distrust of anyone who pops up in the middle of an internet conversation claiming to be an expert in whatever field best suits the current topic. On the internet, anybody can be an expert. I should know, I have a Ph.D in Internetology and a Master's in Claiming To Be An Expert.

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious that a criminal defense attorney is recommending that forty- or fifty-some people break the law every week. I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'?

EDIT: Also, while we're on the topic of conflicts of interest, how much are you willing to bet that everyone at Hatfield games uses Bios?

[The Squawkin' Chicken]

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious that a criminal defense attorney is recommending that forty- or fifty-some people break the law every week. I'm sure you're familiar with the term 'conflict of interest'?

I'm certain Huckelberry is familiar with the term, though you haven't used it in a way that's relevant to his profession. I don't see how what he suggests is a conflict of interest. And he worded this carefully, making me less likely to doubt his credentials.

I'd just as soon find new areas on both sides of the valley. Hatfield is good for the price, of course. But if I'm gonna go that far, I may as well keep driving 'till I hit FighterTown.

[ThatGuy]

My wife has ph DD's lol

[Huckleberry]

Well, some of you have met me in person at games, I come with my son, and use a FAL. Yes, I am an expert, if you show up at Hatfield, I'll be happy to give you my card.

As I noted, there are frequent instances where the law over-reaches. If you are so persnickity, you'd best sell any gas-guns you have. Under Arizona law, any gun device that operates off of "expanding gas" to expel a projectile, is a "firearm", and if you shoot another person with it, you can be charged with "aggravated assault, a dangerous offense". This carries a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. Better quit playing paintball too, just to be safe. Under Arizona statutes getting an abortion is illegal as well, with a sentencing range from 1 to 5 years. Also, don't glue two toothpicks together connected by a piece of dental floss. Under Arizona statutes, that would qualify as "nunchuks", and would be a prohibited weapon in the same class as a machine gun or rocket launcher.
My point is that just because you looked up a "rule" doesn't mean you understand it the way it is used in the real world. The law is much more undefined than most people realize. Since people facing the death penalty trust my advice and judgement, perhaps you shouldn't be so hasty to rather rely on your "internet search". I'm offering to help out here, free. If you'd rather roll over and submit to any show of authority, then I take it you haven't read your history books.

[Mooncruiser]

New spot coming, buy some bios, don't worry.
PS, I break laws once in awhile, like most Free Men, -but don't post it on the Internet (specifics) so its used against myself at a later time. YMMV.

[Bambi-troopers]

huck, i completly agree with you almost 100% its silly people get so picky on laws to fallow. Some of them probly speed with knowin that its a no no. Yet, they do it anyway. They complain to much... Yea, i get it about the state trust land, and them wanting to play legal but its just gets annoying. If they spent half the time looking for a great area to play at other than complain where we play at is illegal... We could have a cool field. Sooo... Yea. Im with the cool guys on this one. Lol. Hopefully the new area checks out to be safe to play on so that nobody complains. I went there yesterday and it was SWEET!!! cross our fingers and hope its good so we can play there without mommy telling us we shouldnt be there.

[Huckleberry]

Awesome news Bambi-Troop. Any chance we can have a "Hatfield West" game up and running this Sunday? My son is finally available to go again, and I was hating to have to break it to him that we were "shut down" on his one free Sunday.

[Mooncruiser]

We are confirming it is indeed BLM. Buy some bios and get ready!

[Mooncruiser]

Saguaro is playing Fightertown this Sunday. Following Sunday doubtful, and the one after that we'll be at the Sandbox.
Sorry Huckleberry, but it'll happen soon.

[Bambi-troopers]

Screw it. Ill host a game next sunday, if anyone shows...then cool but if not, ill explore. Ill set it up tomarow.

Im pumped for a game there! 

[PhoenixShadowCompany]

As I noted, there are frequent instances where the law over-reaches. If you are so persnickity, you'd best sell any gas-guns you have. Under Arizona law, any gun device that operates off of "expanding gas" to expel a projectile, is a "firearm", and if you shoot another person with it, you can be charged with "aggravated assault, a dangerous offense". This carries a minimum sentence of 5 years in prison. Better quit playing paintball too, just to be safe. Under Arizona statutes getting an abortion is illegal as well, with a sentencing range from 1 to 5 years.

We did some research on this one as well as talking to  some people at the court house and talking to gearbox. This statement is not true in the state of Arizona however it does apply in California and about 5 other states

[Huckleberry]

Blast. Well, lets see. If I skip lunch Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, I can afford to drive out and pay for play, at fighter town....

[Mooncruiser]

Too much pro bono, bubbie.

[Huckleberry]

Oh yes, it absolutely is true. I've defended multiple people charged with "Armed Robbery, a Dangerous Offense" because they robbed somebody with a "BB" gun. The courts relied on the definition of expanding gas projectile to establish the "dangerous" element. Also, I know the guys at Gearbox well. They will not contradict me. I don't know who you talked to at the courthouse, but I'll bet they aren't a member of the Arizona State Bar. One of my "mentees" (a younger lawyer) once had a case where his client was charged with Agg. Asslt. Dangerous, for merely pointing a paintball gun at somebody. Yes, that means he was charged by the county attorney with that felony. We managed to get it resolved without that result, but not before he went through hell.

Arizona defines "firearm", in the criminal code as, "...any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, or other weapon which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of expanding gases, except that it does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition."

SO. if anybody ever decides to charge you, then guess what? You get to go to court and argue your case before a judge. (Just as I suggested we do regarding permits and state trust land). Hopefully you will have an experienced lawyer, and the judge lets common sense prevail. If not, then I understand the food at DOC isn't too bad these days.