Army M4 replacement program

[Rogue Fox]

The Army is at it again.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-19/army-carbine-program-may-waste-1-8-billion-report-finds.html?cmpid=yhoo

It actually does seem like a waste of money though, since we already know alot of the special forces liked to use the 416, and not many new rifles that fit the bill have come out since the last time they did this.

[buttfacedmonkey]

It doesn't seem like a waste to me as much as bad timing. Budgets are getting cut up the wazoo, so dropping 1.8 billion right now may not be the best option. The M4, I believe based on my vast knowledge of the military (sarcasm), has proven itself to have deficiencies. I know, when maintained, M4s and most other DI ARs can be plenty reliable, but in terms of something I am counting my life, and the lives of my team, on, I want almost total reliability.

It will probably be a close battle between the MK16 and the HK416.

 

[nukeduster]

They are reliable when they are NOT faced with:

1.dust
2.mud
3. submersion under water without proper draining
4. extreme cold
5. rapid firing over 100 rounds
6. needing one-shot takedown power
7. needing to defeat enemies effective behind barriers
8. needing the ability to fold the stock for more agility in MOUT environments
9. needing field replaceable barrel
10. being dirty from simply being fired (gas impingement)

Those are just the things that I've seen come up in the past as short comings to the M4 compared to other platforms that already exist, platforms which have addressed any and/or all of the above listed short comings.

[Mooncruiser]

Long past time to shitcan the Jammin' Jenny. Wish the Govt. would buy American, though.

[Rogue Fox]

Long past time to shitcan the Jammin' Jenny. Wish the Govt. would buy American, though.

It'd be nice but we havent been buying american for a while, something like 75% of all our small arms are produced by FN, including our m4s/m16s.

[buttfacedmonkey]

The M4, the M16 (somewhat), Barrett M107, MK11, M40, M14, Remmy 870, M203, and 1911 are the only man portable firearms I can think of that we use that are made domestically. Any others I missed?

[bailey5671]

Isnt the reason they aren't replacing the M4s with the HK416 is the price? I hear they can get quite expensive.

[nukeduster]

Hk416 is only like $200 more per rifle at the bulk level. However, long term the Hk416 has a much longer service interval than the M4 (something like 50k rounds vs 10k), which makes it cheaper to run long term.

[buttfacedmonkey]

Hk416 is only like $200 more per rifle at the bulk level. However, long term the Hk416 has a much longer service interval than the M4 (something like 50k rounds vs 10k), which makes it cheaper to run long term.

I always thought the price of the HK416 was like $1000-$1400 per rifle. I know the Army gets M4s for like $600-$700 per rifle. I would assume the HK416, knowing HK, would be much more expensive.

[Bob Z Moose]

Ah, the good, ol' fashion "M4s suck" thread. Been wondering why I haven't seen one on AA yet...

Honestly, fighting over a replacement should be moot. I don't see why the improvements that we've enjoyed on the civilian/LE side of the equation shouldn't transfer to the military side. Piston driven? Why not?

I'll be really surprised if they keep the 5.56 as the issue chamber (or at least I hope they don't). It's great again coyotes, though.

[PhoenixShadowCompany]

The m4 with the 5.56 is still a great weapon. The problem we have now os that more than 3/4 of the ones currently issued are over 20 years old and there is a good chance they have boot been re- lined which can accounts for a good chunk of the problems. My roommate shot national match for several years without ever cleaning it and still could hold am accurate shot. Joey and Jason over at king Armory did a dirt test on several stock and several hand built ar's and they still worked, however had these rifles not been maintained like you would with any other gun then you have the problems you hear so often about. On a side note tight tolerances on a firearm is not always a good thing. Ar's/ m4's with more slop tend to jam allot less, this again applies to all firearms. Now being that I have worked on a near56 I can tell you this. It's no different than am Adams arms piston kit and the short stroke pistons fail a hell of allot than you think. If you want a piston system the only way to go is long stroke. On another side note. ALL piston system firearms inherit the same problem. Increases barrel harmonics due to the moving of the piston which causes a decrease on overall accuracy, this is one of the reasons the us military has been skeptical about adopting them. You can make an accurate piston firearm but a di can always be made better.

[XavierMace]

Long past time to shitcan the Jammin' Jenny. Wish the Govt. would buy American, though.

I'd be all for that if, the overseas stuff wasn't better.  FN all the way.

[Mooncruiser]

Yeah. It's a bitch that U.S. Made can't be Best Made.

[xXmusicimpactXx]

Anybody remember the M468? Seemed like the ultimate compromise to me...

[nukeduster]

The 5.56 is a great round, as someone said, against coyotes. Ask someone who has BTDT, 9mm and 5.56 both suck at initial take down power. Sure, you can kill someone with a single shot, but they won't be immediately out of the fight.

Remember talked to an SAS guy back in the day who was responding to a situation where a guy, who was not on drugs, took over 30 rounds center mass with 9mm, and he was still running away. Sure, he was already dead, but his brain didn't yet know it. Took a sledge hammer to his face in order to take the guy down.

Heard similar stories about 5.56, taking 4+ shots to effectively eliminate a threat.

Never heard of the same problem using 6.8spc or 7.62(x39 or x51).

The M468 is basically a Barret made M4, which they themselves stopped attempting to promote for military use since it still used DI and was largely no better than a run of the mill M4. Their latest hedge for military adaptation is the REC7.