[Harley]

Man I sure hope they get that repealed.  One more vitory for freedom.

[gixser13]

ME TOO, BY THE WAY DID YOU GET THE PICs

[Harley]

Got them, I replied and had a couple questions.

[Jeff_White]

Hello all,
Just out of curiosity which part of the Act are y'all so opposed to?

[Harley]

Hey Jeff, pretty much any part that can override the US constitution and revoke any or all of the amendments.  I know you're doing your part to help protect our borders, but this thing is going way over the boundries of stepping on the rights of US citizens.

[Jeff_White]

Hi guys,
It seems to me that a lot of folks are upset about the Patriot Act. It also seems that the majority of the information about it is at best skewed and at worst flat out wrong. Many groups are trying to make political hay out of bashing this particular piece of law, that in many ways makes the job of defending our homeland easier. I have included below a hyperlink to the .PDF file for the USA Patriot Act. On examining the document I do not belive that anyone will find the authority to suspend the Constitution or any of the Amendments.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.pdf

As always, best regards!

[Ryandetailer]

I have been intrested in the logistics of this law, and have not found the actual doc. for it. I am intrested to see what is in it. Not that I am smart on law or anything, but it will give me a better idea.

Jeff, please let us know what you have seen as an officer, that this is done for you guys.

thanks

[Jeff_White]

Greetings again,
Here is a FAQ about the Patriot Act that may clear up some questions. As far as personal use of the statutes, I have not used any of them. They deal almost exclusively with foreign agents and counter terrorism. Junior guys like me get smaller, less exciting cases!

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mie/ctu/FAQ_Patriot.htm

Y'all have a good one!

[Harley]

Jeff, the possibility of an innocent citizen being flagged as a potential terrorist by a simple email or cell phone conversation are too real.  Why does the NSA have super computers monitoring EVERY Email and Cell phone converstation?  That is one example of violating the constitution.  Did you know they do this and look for key words like "Bomb" or "Target", anything along those lines.  Once it picks up on those key words you get red flag for further monitoring.  What ever happend to innocent until proven guilty?  Too much Big Brother crap involved with the Patriot Act if you ask me.  None the less, we do appreciate your duty to our country!

[IcePlatinumSky]

Yes I appreciate your duty to our country dispite my last post on this issue. Not directed at you or any individual. An emotional talk out loud for the right of privacy, speaking in General!!!

[Jeff_White]

Hello all,
Harely, you seem to be talking about the NSA monitoring communications. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with the intelligence gathering operations of the United States. In order for me, or any other law enforcement type to monitor ANY of a private persons communications ( as long as there is a reasonable expectation of privacy ) we would need to get exactly the same Title III order as before. Let me tell you those T3 orders are very complex and difficult to obtain. I belive that there is some "cross-over" that is going on where folks are getting confused about what the Patriot Act does and does not do.
Looking forward to trading plastic with you all soon!

[leadmagnet]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jeff_White</i>
<br />Hello all,
Harely, you seem to be talking about the NSA monitoring communications. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with the intelligence gathering operations of the United States. In order for me, or any other law enforcement type to monitor ANY of a private persons communications ( as long as there is a reasonable expectation of privacy ) we would need to get exactly the same Title III order as before. Let me tell you those T3 orders are very complex and difficult to obtain. I belive that there is some "cross-over" that is going on where folks are getting confused about what the Patriot Act does and does not do.
Looking forward to trading plastic with you all soon!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No offense Jeff, but I don't think you've made much of an effort at all to understand the ramifications of the "Patriot" Act and other supporting legislation in the works.  Just because you personally are not at a level in law enforcement that is currently utilizing these changes in the laws of arrest and search and seizure does not mean that these new abilities don't exist.  

I'm of the opinion that this act has not been utilized to its full potential as of yet by most enforcement/investigative type federal, state, and local agencies because doing so would awaken the public to it's unconstitutionality at a point in time where it could be quickly abolished due to widespread negative public opinion.  I don't think this is going to be the case for long though.  I truly believe that we are nearing a point where such a retraction of public policy will be impossible without dire consequences and a high probability of defeat to those who dare to make such a proposal.

Lead

[Neepster]

The misnamed "Patriot" Act is a complete piece of $hit designed to destroy what is left of the 4th amendment and 1st amendments.  This piece of legislation ignores the past abuses of the FBI of US citizens (can you say J. Edgar Hoover and Martin Luther King, Jr, Albert Einstein, etc.)

Note that when this was passed, the DOJ swore that it would only be used against "terrorists".  However, the act has been used against drug dealers and in one highly publicized case, against a Vegas stripclub owner.  I am aware of 0 terrorists caught with this thing. Hell, the "terrorists" we have caught we are letting go or charging with things other than terrorism (Hamdi, Detroit group, etc.)
http://www.detnews.com/2004/metro/0409/ ... 260880.htm


'PATRIOT authorizes the use of "sneak and peek" search warrants in connection with any federal crime, including misdemeanors.'

This is a good example of what is wrong with this POS.  We don't have to give away our rights to be safe from terrorists.  The government can do its job without taking our rights away.

Remember, the Bill of Rights is there to protect us, the PEOPLE, from the government.  When the government tries plead neccessity to take these rights away, the people would be fools to sit idly by.  

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." - William Pitt

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Ben Franklin

This is a good summary of what is screwed up with this thing.
http://www.cdt.org/security/usapatriot/brochure.pdf

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance ... m/PATRIOT/

There are so many things unconstitutional about this law it is hard to point to them all, but the worst is probably section 215, which allows the FBI to get any information about any citizen, including library records with no probable cause whatsoever, and the really, really good part is that it is a crime for the library to tell you the FBI is doing this!

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance ... et/215.php

If we aren't careful, we are going to wind up in  Huxley's Brave New World or Orwell's 1984...

[Harley]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by leadmagnet</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jeff_White</i>
<br />Hello all,
Harely, you seem to be talking about the NSA monitoring communications. The Patriot Act has nothing to do with the intelligence gathering operations of the United States. In order for me, or any other law enforcement type to monitor ANY of a private persons communications ( as long as there is a reasonable expectation of privacy ) we would need to get exactly the same Title III order as before. Let me tell you those T3 orders are very complex and difficult to obtain. I belive that there is some "cross-over" that is going on where folks are getting confused about what the Patriot Act does and does not do.
Looking forward to trading plastic with you all soon!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No offense Jeff, but I don't think you've made much of an effort at all to understand the ramifications of the "Patriot" Act and other supporting legislation in the works.  Just because you personally are not at a level in law enforcement that is currently utilizing these changes in the laws of arrest and search and seizure does not mean that these new abilities don't exist.  

I'm of the opinion that this act has not been utilized to its full potential as of yet by most enforcement/investigative type federal, state, and local agencies because doing so would awaken the public to it's unconstitutionality at a point in time where it could be quickly abolished due to widespread negative public opinion.  I don't think this is going to be the case for long though.  I truly believe that we are nearing a point where such a retraction of public policy will be impossible without dire consequences and a high probability of defeat to those who dare to make such a proposal.

Lead

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Wow... well said Lead.

You too Neepster!

[Jeff_White]

Gentlemen,
May I suggest that you both READ the actual statues? Neepster may I further suggest that you pay particular attention to section 215 (2) (B) (1). That is the section that deals with the judicial oversight that is required for such orders to served.
In addition, contrary to what the websites that you posted say, "sneak and peak" search warrants are not new and were not "created" by the Patriot Act. For example how do you suppose wiretaps or transponders are installed? They require (as they always have) a court order from a judge.
I guess that we have turned into a "Chris Carter" conspiracy theory society that it is easy to believe that the federal government is salivating at the chance to turn our country into a fascist state. It is simply trying to protect its citizens from a new kind of mass murderer; one that operates in the shadows and that requires new ways of being dealt with.
As always, best regards